How does one Specify/draw compound curves ?

Once again, I'm feeling a little inadequate, and I don't quite know how I've got as far as I have not knowing this!

I have a customer wanting me to make a pair of gates, similar in style to his friend's entrance gates (photo) The frame of the gate is in 120mm x 75mm (4 3/4" x 3") hollow section, rolled the hard way on top.

compound curvescompound curvesI've talked to a firm who have the capability of rolling them for me, but they need me to specify the curve(s)for them to give me a quote. Now while I can sketch it free hand easily enough roughly to scale, I don't know how to work out the radii, or specify these curves for someone else. Any hints ? or resources for me to plunder ?


KevinW's picture

When I had someone do that

When I had someone do that for me I took them two pieces that were about 5' longer than I needed them and said "roll half the material to a 6' radius this way, and , the other to a 6' that way." I got those measurements from a graph paper scale drawing and it all worked out fine. BUT, I delivered the gate before the column were built.

If I had to be very precise with the curves I'd make a full size template ( 1/4" plywood or 1/2" foam board)and say I need two like this. That is my prefered meathod for getting arround math and difficult communication.

I've learned the KISS meathod: Keep It Simpel, Stupid. It has probably saved me 2 bottels of asprin.

KevinW


eligius1427's picture

Hi Will, if the compound

Hi Will, if the compound curve is (or you if can make it) out of two curves, specifying the radii on paper shouldn't be too much of a problem. Take your measurements and grab some graph paper, ruler(arch scale preferably), and a compass. Pick scale, I usually use 1" = 1' because the breakdown is pretty simple. Draw in all of the straight parts of the gate using the scale to set your limits, then draw in the curve with the compass using 2 arcs or circles making note of the actual radius your using and whether it is the inside or outside radius. After you have a shape your happy with convert the radius measurements on the drawing to actual measurements using the scale factor. Your also going to want to take a string and follow the outside of the curve with it, mark both ends and measure the distance to find the actual length of each curve.

I would suggest constructing the compound curve like Kevin suggested. Have them roll each arc a good 12-18" longer than you need. You can probably figure out the jig and fit up. I usually layout all of the straight parts of the frame, then fit up the curves, mark, cut, and tack the pieces together. Be prepared for slight variations from your requested radii and radii you receive.

Jake Balcom
Mettle Design
Lincoln, NE


eligius1427's picture

Just remembered you live in

Just remembered you live in the land of the metric system, conversions of scale should be even easier.

Jake

Jake Balcom
Mettle Design
Lincoln, NE


Stephen Fitz-Gerald's picture

Compound curves

Stephen Fitz-Gerald

All the above is good advice...
Just a few points I'd like to reiterate to save you any possibility of mistakes...
A real size TEMPLATE is ALWAYS the best way to show the guy on the rolling mill what you really want.
Enlarging your sketch to life size requires a big clear space on a floor you can make marks on.I usually use big sheets of cardboard stapled together and laid on the floor.Big Radius curves in real size can be accomplished by putting a nail in the floor and tying a string onto a piece of chalk (or a Sharpie for instance),to inscribe the arc on the cardboard.Keeping tension on the string (set at the appropriate radius)as you scribe on the floor template is like using a giant compass.
If you only provide a sketch to the guys on the rolling machine MAKE SURE YOU DESIGNATE THAT IT"S RADIUS and not diameter.When they roll a big 20 foot piece of steel they will always "burn" about a foot on either end that does not get rolled,so count on that downfall...
Hmmmm,did I miss anything?
Just keep asking questions here if you're still confused.
I've done this a million times but it's often difficult to elucidate IN WORDS each step in a process that has simply become wrote after so many years...


Will Jones's picture

Thanks!

Thanks for all the advice guys...I've been thinking pretty much along most of these lines - to tell the truth I'd be more than happy to do them a full size template to do the job, but right now I just want a ball park quote from them.

Drawing out-wise, I think what's been foxing me is that on paper, if I use a compass to draw two arcs of about the right radius, where they meet there's always a little kink...ie in reality there's actually a third little curve that blends the two big arcs together... I think....

The irony is that I don't need it done highly accurately as long as the two sides match each other.
The rest of the gate can be made to work around it. Will keep sketching!

Will Jones


eligius1427's picture

Will, sometimes I put in a

Will, sometimes I put in a small straight piece between the two curves to act as a transition. Also, if you have or know someone that has a cad program of any sort, this could all be figured out very accurately in a matter of minutes. For estimation purposes however changing the radius by a little bit shouldn't make any difference in the costs. You know you'll need two or three pieces and their approximate size and radius so you probably have enough info for the estimate already.

Another option is to plasma cut the profile and weld flat bar to the top and bottom, creating your own tube. More work welding and cleaning, but you don't have to worry about matching curves up.

Jake

Jake Balcom
Mettle Design
Lincoln, NE


Stephen Fitz-Gerald's picture

One more thing...

Stephen Fitz-Gerald

Will,
One other thing I forgot to mention is there is a distinct possibility that the tube you designated to be rolled may crush a bit if it's any thinner than 1/8th inch thick.I personally think that's an awfully big dimensional tube for a typical driveway gate. Is there really a need for it to be that big? If it were my gig I'd try to convince the clients to go with SQUARE TUBING of a lesser OUTSIDE dimension,but a THICKER WALL. This would provide less weight overall,with greater strength,and negate the possibility of crushing or distorting when rolled.
Just a thought...


Will Jones's picture

Mmm.. it is an odd section

Mmm.. it is an odd section for a gate frame.. but I think it's one of the things that makes the gate interesting..ish.
More like the profile of a wooden gate frame.
I'm actually struggling to find a source for this hollow section right now, as my normal supplier doesn't do it.
Just working out a price for this project is getting to be hard work ! Will Jones


Will Jones's picture

Hey Jake, That's not the

Hey Jake,
That's not the craziest idea in the world, to fabricate my own tube.....
Will Jones


Giusseppe's picture

joining curves

there is a common tangent to the two curves where they meet and you will find that cutting the ends with matching angles will give you a clean transition.
if you have an H press, you can do this yourself provided you move slowly and use wood or plastic as your pressure points ....also a close fitting wall each side will slop bulging.

Where to bend next ... www.metalgarden.ca


Will Jones's picture

Thanks Giusseppe, I do have

Thanks Giusseppe,
I do have a 20 ton press - If I can pick up a few off cuts of big box section it might be worth experimenting....I'd love to do it in house if it's possible.
Will Jones


Feral Metal's picture

Will, have you tried Hub Le

Will, have you tried Hub Le Bas ? they do ERW rectangular hollow section, I know they do 120mm x 60mm x 3mm.
How about rolling the top rails in one piece to get a constant radius then cutting into 2 pieces.
David.


visitor's picture

How does one Specify/draw compound curves ?

I think you should search google for that. Youwill definitely find your solution..