Excellent ideas, Brad! Good salesmanship and a proper response to the perceived problem.

I think the value of having the students actually participate in the creation of the tree would far outweigh the potential for future loss/damage. I would do everything possib le to sell the project, even going so far as to elicit public support. For a couple hundred bucks they could put a camera to monitor the thing, or an alarm system.

The problem I see with that approach, Rick, is that the clients perceive the threat to be one of potential theft of the material for salvage. Most thieves are too damn dumb to know the difference between real copper and cheap galvanized steel with a copper plate or patina, so they'll hack the thing up anyway.

I suppose you could put the tree in the middle of a pond filled with alligators, or set in a cozy little circle of poison ivy or something...or go with the traditional English moat, perhaps.

Will,
What you have here is mostly a sales problem. Schools are very difficult to sell to, primarily because it's difficult to identify the customer. Customer is always the one with the checkbook. Teachers, administrators and janitors are all employees. They don't have the checkbook. They get paychecks. Schools checkbooks are frequently controlled by some sort of board, your customer is then a majority of that board. Before the board hears a concept or presentation an administrator has to be enthused enough to present the concept to them. Most view these opportunities as career threatening. It's difficult for them to sell an item,
let alone an item that hasn't been made yet. They can sell educational opportunities, you will have to provide them with the tools to close the sale. A killer presentation is involved here. "Building those presentations is why many of us want Rhino programs." Pieces like your tree are frequently sold as a pleasant reminder of an educational experience. They happen through artist in residence programs and are sold on the concept of the students receiving the educational benefit of being involved with a real live artist in the creation of a participatory art work. Brad

Thanks Brad - All your comments make a lot of sense, although the situation here as I understand it is that a group of environmentally oriented students have got a grant to do something to beautify their surroundings, and they democratically decided a copper tree was what they'd like.
The art dept are co ordinating the project, and the deputy Headmistress seems to be the person in control of funds.
Students, art dept. and dept.headmistress are all 100% sold on the idea, and me (blush) and excited about it....
It really is just the security issue putting a spanner in the works.
Will

Janitors get to decide how they are going to sweep around it,..Glad to hear it..I'm proud of you and have no doubt they will receive an awesome sculpture. It's a sales problem. Here's a similar one and a solution. Mother wants to buy daughter a very nice ring for her birthday. I want to sell one. Unfortunately this child has never shown an ounce of responsibility. The mother is certain that the daughter will loose the ring shortly after receiving it. Solution: A ring is already sold, It's just a matter of meeting the objection and making a selection. "Sell the sizzle not the steak." The mother desperately wants her daughter to grow up to be a responsible adult. I nearly point out that this process of being responsible has to start someplace. I ask " Did you buy your daughter a bicycle? Did she fall off and skin her knee? You knew she would didn't you? Did that prevent you from buying her a bicycle? Which ring do you think she would fall in love with, mom? " Never let fear of tomorrow determine your actions today..Invest today in what you want tomorrow to be.
We'll keep our fingers crossed. It's almost sold.. Brad

That's what I fear! Although copper's widely used for boilers et.c, and so shouldn't be too easily corroded by water alone, I don't know if the alkalinity of cement would be a problem, or if that's all bound up once it's set ?
There's the collection problem ( although barring a totally watertight construction- (ha ha) I guess there'd always be spots where it'd collect.
Then again I wonder if capillary action would suck water up between the concrete and copper "skin" creating a permanently damp, maybe corrosive environment.
Of course the other problem with all these security measures is 1) potential thieves may not be aware of them 'till the angle grinder hits the concrete, and 2) if that happens it'll be a hell of a lot harder to move/repair .

I'm sounding a little negative, I know, but actually I'm determined to find an answer, as this problem is going to occur more and more as metal prices continue to soar.

Over here we've had railroad accidents because thieves have stolen wiring from signal boxes, lead stolen from church roofs, and live copper gas pipes ripped off the outside of people's houses.

The world just gets crazier every day.
Will Jones, www.ironwill.org.uk

I know how difficult it is to swallow a dissapointment like this, just went thru it, bottom line is if they want to steel it they will, Good job of anchoring would help but all said and done the suggestion of a insurance rider makes sense. your so right the more involvement of the students and their familys the better. luck ronnie

Thanks Nelson. I guess because I currently see myself more as a metalsmith than an artist, I'm more than happy to take my metalwork down an artistic route, but resistant to letting art/sculpture lead me too far away from metal. I know this is my issue, and I'm limiting my own possibilities, but right now that's how I feel.

BUT I think I've found an answer, which, combined with insurance, could keep everyone happy.
There's a British company who do a product called smartwater (google it) and now a specific product to prevent copper theft. It basically coats the piece with a unique, traceable fingerprint that pretty impossible to completely remove. Insurance companies love it. Even lead on church roofs is coated with the stuff.

Scrap yards ( o.k., reputable scrap yards!) can instantly see the coating under U.V. light, and the manufacturers can trace a sample to it's source, and tie a criminal to a crime scene.

Not infallible - but I think it'll be enough....
Will Jones, www.ironwill.org.uk

Hi Will,
That's pretty amazing. I really have never heard of people stealing copper fixtures here in NYC. Many just too many people around and not too many scrap metal yards.
That's insane that people even steal railroad metal?
hey, there's something good about NYC (only kidding)
Janet R.

Here in Florida the problem would be solved by a plant, beautiful too. We have a plant called bougainvillea. It has tiny little flowers on it that few ever see. It also has clusters of three very colorful brachts, (not leaves, not flowers). But it's most unforgettable quality is it's thorns! Every place I've ever been has a similar plant. Roses? We commonly refer to the plant as Florida's barbed wire. We have alligators, Too. They are very over rated as watchdogs..and they attract tourists. Hmmm Brad

Hey Will that catch-the-thieves-after-stealing product sounds like out of a James Bond movie! Amazing high tech. Now, be ready for this: the school guys may tell you what if thieves wear gloves? or what if the steal the sculpture or damage it trying, and the thieves are caught, or not afterwards? I believe you`d better think about prevention,that seems to be the issue, a sculpture that nobody will not even try stealing. Heavy steal, whatever... save your copper proyect.Down the line you can bet you`ll sell the idea elsewhere. It`s tricky to know when to make a turn, or just keep going straight.There are signs, in my personal view that are shouting "make a turn". Don`t mean to discourage you by any means,just trying to help.Good luck on whatever road you take. Nelson.

Take your point, Nelson. The hope is that it will act as a deterrent if thieves think the copper will be unsaleable. Although the smartwater isn't on the tip of everyone's tongue yet, I'm sure the career criminals are aware of it, and would as soon avoid protected goods if possible - after all, the scrap value of this is not high enough to warrant major risk, or elaborate measures to prevent being traced, although it might be a temptation to turn an easy buck.

But it would require a lot of publicity to make people aware of this protection, including ugly stickers/signs in the immediate vicinity of the sculpture.....which might just make more people aware of the value of the thing....
It might be a good thing for the school to protect all of their valuable assets this way, and make a big fuss about how foolish anyone would be to try selling any property stolen from school grounds?

From a commercial, selfish point of view, the school are looking for me to give them a way to feel safer about the investment, and I'm giving'em one. And if it makes the sale, then the future's in the hands of fate...but if this product helps them insure the piece then they know their money's protected. It's not all about money, I know, but they'll feel a lot better for that nonetheless.

I think maybe it comes down to the insurance, at the end of the day - if it can be economically insured against theft / damage, then the project's viable, If not then a U turn may be the only way forward (pretty zen, eh?)

Will.

Hi Will,
I certainly hope your project goes forward.I'm glad that people are coming up with new ways to catch thieves.Here in Michigan there seems to be an inordinate rise in copper theft.The thieves are often paying dearly by being electrocuted during the heist.Taking copper electrical wire that is still in use is a sign of a rather desperate person. Even in a fairly isolated place, as where I live, the flaws of human nature haunt society.I suggest that you somehow figure out a way to make your sculpture obviously theft proof.
Frank

Thanks - Someone else had told me about that - but I didn't know where to find it.
Have'nt been online much recently as a result of workload/illness/girlfriend hogging the (her)p.c.
That Brian Russell feller's a bit good isn't he?
Was also very impressed/envious of some of the work you've posted!

I'm going with the copper - just ordered about a grands worth of it (ulp).
We're going to coat it in smartwater - and I was given another clever little security tip over the weekend, which sounds feasible.
The suggestion was to fill the trunk with loose stainless steel tubes, so if an angle grinder goes through the trunk, it'll bite into a tube, the tube twists and traps the disk and the disk breaks!
Sounds like a good alternative to filling with concrete.
Will

Thanks for your comments, the tube idea inside the trunk sounds like a good one, will have to bear that in mind myself. Brian Russell is an amazing smith and does some fantastic work, there are a few projects on the site that i worked on with him. I worked for him for over 2 and a half years and owe a huge amount to him.
Adrian

Will.......glad to hear that this is a GO.....:)

Thanks for the link to Brian's site, Adrian.
I had the pleasure of seeing Brian and "crew" make an amazing gate at an ABANA conference a few years ago. And it's great to see more of his work. I'm a huge fan of Nouveau and his "style" ROX.
I know you realize how fortunate you were to be able to work with someone of his caliber.
bill