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Yet another n00b looking for help
thynk -
Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 1:27am
brazing | copper | heating | steel I ran across this site while doing a google search on how to join steel with copper. I'm VERY new to metal working - in fact I'm still experimenting. I make chain mail (chainmaille if you like it spelled that way) and a friend gave me an assortment of copper wire scraps. Some of the stuff he gave me was far too heavy (10ga) for use in anything I make, so I got to playing around and made a copper ring by flattening the wire (okay, bashing the living crap out of it) with a hammer and making it roughly ring shaped over a broom handle (only the HIGH tech tools used here). NEAT STUFF! Every night, I'd think of something new to try, including using some steel wire (16ga) that I found here in what was my dad's studio. This is why I have some questions... So, now I've got these neat patterns of steel and copper without any real way to join the ends. I picked up a propane torch at the hardware store, and it works find for heating the metals, melting beer lids, lighting cigarettes, etc. I'm able to successfully use lead based solder to join the smaller copper ends together, but unless I want to die of lead poisoning that's not a good idea, and also won't flow onto the steel. My main question is what would you experts suggest I use to join these ends together? I'll attach a picture so you can see roughly the size of the materials I'm working with. I have hundreds of hours soldering electronics, but while the concept is the same, the application is different. Where would I find these materials "on the cheap" - this is just a hobby and still catching up from the spring layoffs. Couple other questions come to mind. I've been reading a bit on the inter-tubes and watching vids on youtube. I see that people heat to a glowing red, and then douse in water. This seems to go against the picture I have in my head of a burly blacksmith pounding red hot metal, so I must wonder, what is the purpose behind this? I've noticed that heating the steel turns it an almost black and is somewhat difficult to make shiny again. Is there a preferred method to cleaning these, and for the ones where the black looks good, is there a way to preserve this coloring? Last but not least, what are some of the more common tools used in the creation of rings, in what order should they be purchased and where does one locate this stuff? Is there a good "making metal stuff for dummies" out there that someone would recommend I read? Many, many thanks :-) Stu ![]() Thanks BJ
thynk -
Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 8:13am
Thanks for the ideas BJ! I can see how that would indeed help solve the end problem, and will have to see if I can work that idea into my "creations". It will preclude smashing the crap out of them until I get a ring mandrel, as the wood in the broom stick is far too soft to that sort of thing. Stu ![]() Hi Thynk, and welcome to
eligius1427 -
Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 8:35am
Hi Thynk, and welcome to Artmetal. Odds are, the best way to join the ends with some sort of fusion is to braze or silver solder the ends together. In order to acheive that however, i think you're going to need a a torch with a finer and hotter flame then what you can get from a normal propane torch. Ideally you want to use a micro torch, probably Oxygen/Propane. Usually the trick to solders is the prep, flux, and locality of the heat so the problem with the soft solder and steel might be that, although I'm certainly no expert with soldering. I do know that trying to solder small pieces can be a bear since it's so easy to get the whole piece hot instead of just where you want the solder. As for the quenching, there are many reasons. The most common are that your finished with that section and are cooling it to handle it, or your cooling it down past it's malleability point so it won't move while working on a section adjacent to it. That dark coating is scale, and occurs when ever red hot metal interacts with the air. If you wire brush the red hot metal before cooling you can remove most of it and be left with a nice silvery finish. If you wait till it's completely cooled it can be a real bear to get off. As for protecting the finish, there are many options from waxes, to clear coats, to lacquers. Permalac makes a clear coat "specifically" for steel and Nikolas(sp?) makes a clear coat specifically for copper/brass. Kind of need to imagine how much abuse/handling the piece is going to take before picking a protective coat. As for tools, you'll have to pick the brains of some of the jewelry experts on the site, but you might look up Ganoskin(sp?) which is a site dedicated to the jewelry arts i think. Hope this helps and keep posting your work Jake Jake Balcom ![]() Thanks :-)
thynk -
Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 9:47pm
Jake, Thanks for your insights. I'll have to look into the Permalac type coatings. The scale adds a darkness to the rings that is a good contrast for the polished copper. Stu ![]() I would recomend The
visitor -
Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 7:18pm
I would recomend The Complete Metalsmith any version (there are three.) I also that you can braze the ends of the copper links together with the propane torch. You must have the ends meet with no space because silver solder does not fill space. It runs as thin as water. You will need the proper flux which you can find welding supplies. The white paste kind will probably work the best for you. Silver solder can be bought from jewelry suppliers such as Rio Grande. Clean the metal with sandpaper where you are going to solder. It must be clean. marilyn ![]() Welcome to ArtMetal,
Rich Waugh -
Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 11:59pm
Welcome to ArtMetal, Stu! I'll address a few of the issues you brought up: For small wire such as you're using, your little propane torch should work okay for silver soldering, but it probably won't quite develop enough heat to actually braze steel using brass rod. SilFos, a phosphorous bronze alloy used by refrigeration techs will work fine with that torch if you keep the work small. The underlying issue is one of available Btu's of heat more than flame temperature. You can maximize the available heat of your propane torch by doing your soldering on a surface that retains heat and radiates it back to the work piece. Soft lightweight insulating fire bricks work well, as does a piece of refractory fiberboard such as Duraboard (alumina fibers and binder formed into a rigid board), a jeweler's charcoal block or a piece of soft asbestos board. All these materials will retain the torch heat and radiate it back to your work, essentially almost doubling the effectiveness of your torch. Even a shallow pan filled with Perlite or vermiculite will do wonders. For soft (lead, tin or lead/tin) soldering of steel you need the proper flux. Muriatic acid will work, but there are proprietary fluxes (such as Johnson's) sold that are a bit better. These usually contain both muriatic acid and ammonium chloride (sal ammoniac), and serve to clean the oxides off the steel and slightly etch the surface for better adhesion of the soft solder. Check with a plumbing, heating or A/C repair place to see what they have available and recommend in your area. For hard (silver) soldering of steel you need to have the steel clean and free of scale or oxides. Sanding it lightly with 400 grit wet/dry paper works fine. Then you need the proper flux, usually one containing borax and/or boric acid. A bit of 20-Mule Team borax (NOT Boraxo hand cleanser) dissolved in water to a paste consistency with a bit of isopropyl alcohol added works decently but, once again, there are proprietary fluxes such as Battern's that work better, particularly if you're going to be soldering non-ferrous metals as well. Apply the flux before you heat the metal, as it is intended to prevent oxidation. Steel is hardened by heating and then quenching it, from a heat that is above the A3 transformation point. That is, the steel is heated until it just becomes non-magnetic and is then quenched in the proper quenching medium. Depending on the steel alloy, the proper quench can be anything from warm oil (slowest quench) to brine (fastest quench). After hardening, the steel needs to be "tempered" to reduce the hardness somewhat so it is not so brittle it breaks. Tempering is, like hardening, done by heating, but to a much lower temperature, say between 350 and 500 degrees Fahrenheit, depending once again, on the particular alloy of steel you're using. Non-ferrous metals, on the other hand, become annealed (softened) by heating to red hot and quenching. They are hardened by working them, usually by hammering or compressing. The percentage of compressive reduction affects the hardness. Too much compression and the metal becomes so brittle it cracks. Once it is hardened, you can anneal it again and start the process all over. Of course, you can work the steel while it is at a red to yellow heat and save yourself a lot of work as it becomes much more malleable at these temps. To anneal steel, it must be heated to the A3 (non-magnetic) point and then cooled very slowly. Some specialty steels require cooling at a rate of no more than 25 degrees F per hour - a very time consuming process that requires computer-controlled ovens. Regular mild steel such as you get at the steel yard or hardware store can be annealed by heating to red hot and slowly cooling in a pile of ashes, vermiculite, perlite or dry sand. Like the non-ferrous metals, steel can become hardened by working it with a hammer when it is at room temperature. Overwork it and it cracks, too. If you get one of the many books on silversmithing available at bookstores and/or online, you will get an idea of the various tools that are commonly used. Keep in mind that many of these tools can be adapted from common hardware store items and work just fine for your purposes. A selection of round steel rods of various sizes is sometimes even better than a real ring mandrel as the rods are cylindrical, not tapered, making it easier to get your rings cylindrical. Flea markets are a good source of old punches, taper pins, drift pins, transfer punches, etc that all make good ring mandrel substitutes. An old sledge hammer head polished up and set end-up in a stump makes a great small anvil/bench plate. You can re-grind flea market or discount house hammers to do a lot of the tasks usually done by specialized smithing hammers. These are just a few examples - I'm sure you will think of many others after you've looked over the list of tools. There are a couple of tools that you really can't fudge on. A good jeweler's saw frame and blades is one. I recommend only Herkules or Scies jeweler's saw blades, by the way. Cheap ones are an abomination. Likewise for files - get good ones, not Harbor Freight cheapies. Rio Grande or Santa Fe Jeweler's Supply can provide all the tools and supplies you'll need, and the Rio Grande catalogs are an education in themselves. You'll also probably find that you need a good small bench vise, preferably one that rotates. Get a good one with smooth, parallel jaws. It doesn't have to be an expensive machine tool vise, but you don't want a cheap POS that is out of whack and mars your work. Make some covers for the jaws out of soft copper sheet to protect the finish on your work. One area in which you simply can't afford to scrimp is safety gear. You absolutely must have a good pair of ANSI z-81 approved safety glasses with side shields, a pair of acid-proof gloves and a proper respirator if you're going to work with metals, acids and heat. If you're going to do much hammering, get some hearing protection. Hearing damage is progressive and non-reversible, as I can sadly attest. Lastly, get some burn ointment - you'll need it sooner or later, believe me. The best one is Silvadene cream - you'll need a scrip from your doc to get it, but it really is the balls for soothing burns, preventing infection and speeding the healing process. One final piece of advice: get a decent 5-10 megapixel digital point-and-shoot camera and become familiar with it. Use a flood light or shoot outdoors in the shade on a plain background. Take lots of pictures of your work, both in-progress and finished. They are good to have for selling your work to prospective clients, they make it easy to illustrate questions you may ask or answer here, and most of all, WE LOVE PICTURES! :-) I look forward to hearing how your work is progressing, and I'll be happy to answer any questions you have. There is a wealth of talent here on ArtMetal and someone will know the answer to pretty much any question you could imagine, so ask away. Rich Waugh ![]() wow, thanks!
thynk -
Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 9:45pm
Rich, Thanks for your insights and advice. It will take me a while to process all this info, and digest it. Your information on the heating and cooling is particularly informative, as are the ideas to adapt cheap tools to my needs. I'll find my decent camera and take more pictures - and the kids are suggesting I do a series of youtube type videos explaining the process. Stu (again, sorry if this double posts, Thought I was logged in the first time). ![]() Good grief! I do go on and
Rich Waugh -
Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 12:21am
Good grief! I do go on and on, don't I? Maybe in the future I should break it up into chapters or something. (grin) Hope I didn't bore anyone. Rich ![]() question
B.J. Severtson -
Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 4:12am
Stu, What you have to ask yourself is. Is all of this effort worth it for a ring that will probably break? Because it doesn't have enough mass to be wearable and that will turn the wearers finger green when worn. Most people find that objectionable. Keeping with your original materials: Here's another way to approach the problem. You like the steel, (probably a coated mild iron,really but, ok) ![]() efforts?
thynk -
Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 9:44pm
I'm not sure that my efforts thus far are really worth anything ;-) It's been a way to express a little creativity with some stuff I had on hand here at the house. Clearly, copper is not an ideal substance for ring making, but with a friend who's an electrician and is willing save me his scrap, I have all the raw materials I could ever use for free. The steel or iron wire, I have no idea what it really is, just one of the things my father had sitting around for GP use. I look forward to moving on to other metals as my meager budget allows for it, I'm especially fond of silver, but at $5-10 per foot of sterling wire, it will have a wait a while. Eventually, one day, I'd like to be able to afford the materials and tools to make mokume gane rings, but for now, that's just a dream. (sorry if this double posts, didn't realize I wasn't logged in). ![]() A good basic book is The
marilyn -
Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 11:27am
A good basic book is The Complete Metalsmith. It has good explanations of processes and drawings intend of pictures. What do you want to do with these rings? Big wall pieces of chain mail patterns or rings that can be worn? ![]() Thanks!
thynk -
Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 9:43pm
I'll take a look and see if I can find a copy somewhere. I really didn't have plans for these rings when I started, it just kind of happened in a fit of boredom, but yes, these would be worn and not woven into mail. My attention span is far for any large mail projects, which is why I make little ornamental things, like bracelets I can finish in a few hours :-) Stu ![]() Stu, You might look around
Rich Waugh -
Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 11:10pm
Stu, You might look around for some pre-1960's quarters to work with. They're coin silver, which is 90% silver and 10% copper. For learning purposes, copper is a good material to work with. Don't worry about putting time in on something that will turn your finger or wrist green - you're doing this for the practice and education, not to get items for long term wear. You can also practice on stainless steel, if you have the patience. It is tough stuff to work, but it can be done. It won't turn your finger green and stainless jewelry is generally more expensive than silver these days, due to the high labor of working it. You anneal stainless steel the same way you anneal non-ferrous metals - heat and quench. You can work it hot or cold, just be sure to anneal frequently if working it cold. Even if you buy silver, the relaxation value of the work is probably better than time on the shrink's couch and much cheaper. (grin) Rich ![]() Copper / Steel....
Jman -
Wednesday, October 14, 2009 - 11:42am
Hey there thynk, Ahhh, Copper... One of My favorite metals to work with. The joining of Copper and Steel can be a bit of a challenge but you can do it quite easily with 'Silicon Bronze' (TIG ROD) or SILPHOS of any type. Heck, even 95/5 solder will work and there's no LEAD in it either... Here's the problem.... because you're using a 'hand-held' torch, it's going to LIMIT your use and accuracy of welding ANY metal together, much less FERROUS and NON-FERROUS unions. I think the answer to your 'dilemma' would be a 'proper' set of tools. Either way you cut it, you are going to need a 'DECENT' torch. TOOLS A "Smith Little Torch" sound like just the ticket for you. They basically come in two flavors, but the most popular type is the OXY/ACETYLENE setup. This will give you a VERY concentrated, VERY hot flame and will allow you to even 'Fusion Weld Steel' (to a limited degree of course). The "Smith Little Torch Kits" come with the hoses, the tips and even the proper regulators (some kits). Either one of these will be sufficient for your 'current' needs. Personally, if you don't already own or have access to a 'small OXY/ACE' torch, I would go with that one, simply because it will give you more heat when you need it. If you eventually find the need to go to a REALLY CLEAN gas, that torch will allow you to use HYDROGEN as well (cleanest gas available..., period) The "Tips" used with the "Little Torch" are good for ALL gasses. The exception is the #1 and #2 tips as the orifice is just too small to use with any LP GAS. You can also buy "ROSEBUD" torches that will allow you to melt just about anything ! They are also SUPER FREAKIN' FANTASTIC for heating up keystock and rounds for twisting and forging ! You'll LOVE IT ! I've seen the kits on sale for $109.00 (includes Torch, Tips, Hoses) Acetylene and Oxygen Tank: You can get these at your LWS. You'll only need the small tanks (around 70cu/feet) as those will last a LONG time with such a small Torch. Regulators and Flash Back Arrestors: Both are a must and don't let ANYONE tell you any different ! The regulators obviously regulate the gas, but the Flash Back arrestors keep your Garage or Workshop from BLOWING UP, thus keeping 'YOU' from blowing up. Have your LWS sell you the proper regulators and "REGULATOR FLASHBACK ARRESTORS". Take your torch into them and they will match them up perfectly with your Torch and Choice of tanks. Flint Sparker to light torch: Around $2.00 bucks... Welding Rods, Fluxes, etc: Around $30.00 to $200.00 dollars... (depends on what you buy...) Play around with Copper Phosphate 0 (ZERO) It's pretty amazing stuff and you'll love it for copper. You can also buy one, two or three Silicon Bronze TIG Rods at your LWS if that's all you want to try... Don't forget the LFB (LOW FUME BRONZE !) that is another GREAT welding media that will join metal and copper quite easily. It also produces an AMAZINGLY beautiful golden color that adds incredible contrast to a ring, bangle, sculpture or Wall Art piece... I highly suggest those rods as well. Stick to 1/16" rods and 3/32 as a MAXIMUM width of any rod type when using such a small torch (unless you plan on using a rosebud tip). While at the LWS, pick up some white "Handy Flux". That stuff is great for a TON of applications. Silver Solder: (about $15.00 for a tube / Syringe) and about $7.00 / Gram in Sheet form) Crucibles: $2.00 to $15.00 dollars each (depending on type (I just use lot's of the $2 and $4 ones.) Borax Soap: ($5.00) It is also used as a homemade flux and tends to work very well for me ! I use it on everything from Mild Steel to copper and then to my crucibles. It is the primary additive in many fluxes at the LWS. CLAMPS, CLAMPS and MORE CLAMPS... (Hey, did I mention CLAMPS ?) Hand Tools: One of the best things about owing a TORCH is that you can make your own tools ! Well, maybe not Super Vice Grips or Electric Shears, but you'll find at least 100 things to make in about a week ! Other Things: Advice ! It's always free ! Some of it's good, most of it's so-so and the rest is just 'plain-bad'. Fortunately, places like this are one of the BEST places for someone like you (and me..) to learn and ask questions. The other GREAT place is at your local Library. That's where I found MOST of my initial answers to MOST of my questions regarding Jewelry, Welding, Art, etc... And the beauty of it is that it was ALL FREE ! I was able to obtain books that were hundreds of dollars through Amazon and E-Bay and read them at my leisure. The LIBRARY is a very UNDER-RATED source of information! Other metals, other Media: Don't be too afraid of playing around with other metals. There relationship between Copper and Silver is truly fantastic. Playing around with Silver (Eventually..) is a must. Okay, that's it for me..... I've basically written a small book here... So Enjoy ! You're about to have a WHOLE LOT MORE FUN once you acquire two or three CRUCIAL TOOLS for Jewelry making !! Cheers, /JMAN....
Oh yeah, almost forgot.... The black crap left behind is Carbon / Oxidization. OXY / ACE is the WORST for that kinda' thing, while OXY / HYDROGEN is the BEST for NOT leaving CARBON behind. The safest and best product that I have found for removal is "Sparex #2" for Copper and "Sparex #1" for Iron. Although you can't use either on 'both' without some issues, it does work GREAT independently. The SPAREX #2 is good for EVERYTHING except ferrous, so that would be my first choice. Once left in for a bit, you'll see it turn color and a light brass brush will take care of the rest. You can use the solution over an extended period of time but it will lose it's strength as time goes by... Sparex #2 comes in granule / powder form and you merely mix it with water to your desired strength. It' neutralizes completely with baking soda so it's not an environmental 'disaster' if it goes down the sink. I normally store mine in sealed containers or better yet, outside... /J... ![]() Pretty good advice there,
Rich Waugh -
Wednesday, October 14, 2009 - 6:28pm
Pretty good advice there, Jman. Except for the bit about the borax soap. I'm sure you meant plain borax, rather than borax soap, as the soap (Boraxo) would make a lousy flux. I just thought I'd better clear that up so a beginner wouldn't get confused and use the wrong stuff. Regular 20-Mule Team borax (laundry additive) is fine for flux, but Boraxo hand soap is only good for cleaning the hands. Thanks for taking the time to lay all that out for everyone, Jman. Rich ![]() YES ! You are correct Sir...
visitor -
Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 10:28pm
YES ! You are correct Sir... Borax Soap is definitely NOT what to use... I in fact use the 20 Mule as you suggested there and it makes a pretty inexpensive Flux. Cheers, /Jman... ![]() Hey Stu! Nice to meet
Jamie Santellano -
Wednesday, October 14, 2009 - 1:12pm
Hey Stu! Nice to meet you...welcome to ArtMetal! I think everyone else has pretty much covered it as far as advice on your project making. I too, do a lot of Chain Mail work...I've recently joined the SCA (Society For Creative Anachronism) and took a class in making chain mail armor. It was very cool! Most of my creations are made from Sterling Silver, and focused mostly on Wearable Art. Hope you have a great time chain mailing! Jamie Santellano |
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Welcome aboard
Thynk, welcome to the wonderful world of metal smashing, it's an art, ya know? Wire work has inherent problem, you've discovered it. What do I do with these ends? Best approach might be to solve the design problem before beginning the smashing. Here's a way. It's an on line thing, you'll love it. Suppose that your braiding was done with only one wire? and then further imagine that this wire came back to itself, end meets end? Ok I know you are in like with copper and iron. Mentally lay them beside each other and treat them conceptually as one line. Do a search on Turks Heads and Spanish knots. These line workers have solved your ends problem. There are people doing this kind of work in metal.
Hope this helps. I'm not a blacksmith But I'm pretty sure sometimes those guys are quenching the metal just to cool it off, cause last time they didn't and well. Or they are thinking about the iron from a molecular level and trying to control the spacing of the molecules.. enough for now
good luck BJ