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Elevator motor for twisting metal
Stefani -
Monday, June 28, 2010 - 3:42pm
I may have the possibility to retrieve an old elevator motor from a building. I have visited someones website lately, who will remain nameless, and saw that someone has found an excellent new life for old elevator motors..........to make into a device that will twist very long pieces of metal. This certain someone does not seem to want to help me. OKAY MAN. I got it. I have contacted them twice with no response.........greedy with their secrets, I guess. I figure I will put it out there for all of my Artmetal friends. I am sure once I retrieve this motor I can figure it with some help of some mechanical geniuses I know but I would love to hear any positive comments or helpful tips from anyone on this site, especially if they have seen this work before. Any help would be appreciated so I can anticipate my needs for this big project. ![]() Stephani, Everything Ries
Rich Waugh -
Monday, June 28, 2010 - 8:45pm
Stephani, Everything Ries said is excellent advice. No surprise there. Whenever you're dealing with salvaged motors you need to be very mindful of their power requirements - particularly industrial or commercial motors. Typically, those motors if less than thirty or forty years old, tend to be 3-phase. If you don't have 3-phase in your shop that means you'll need a phase converter which can be as expensive as the motor or more so. By the same token, single phase motors aren't available in more than 7-1/2 horsepower so you're limited there, though 3 hp is plenty for a twister that will handle 1/2" square or even 3/4" square with sufficient gear reduction or if the steel is hot. My own power twister is a salvaged pipe threading machine. It's an older Rigid 300, I believe, and turns a bit too fist but it works okay. I'm planning, if I ever get a job that requires a lot of twisted pickets or something like that, to put a brake on it. It will be simple enough to outfit it with a disc break salvaged from a small car. Someday. Almost all the twisting I ever need to do is just one to five pieces at a time, so I do it manually in a vise with a twisting wrench. I'm almost always twisting 1/2" or 5/8" square bar so I do it hot. 1/4" or 3/8" I can twist cold. Cold twisting is really the best if you want uniform twists, since the temperature affects the ease with which the metal twists. Room temperature is nice and constant, while a heated bar is colder at the ends than in the middle and the twist will be tighter where it is hotter. Like i said, for one or two pieces twisting hot by h and works fine. If you're like Ries and do big projects where you may be twisting two or three hundred pieces at a time and they all have to match, then a power twister like his Hebo is the only way to fly. Rich ![]() Building custom equipment
Daedalus -
Monday, June 28, 2010 - 10:13pm
Before you commit large amounts of money to modifying something that may be only used occasionally.You may want to think about investing in a drive system that will serve you well in multiple functions. In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. ![]() the fellow with the elevator
Ries -
Tuesday, June 29, 2010 - 11:02am
the fellow with the elevator motor is Al Paley. So its not directly applicable to the problem of a small shop with no money. VFD's can, theoretically, control motors down to very slow speeds- but they tend to have less and less torque at slow speeds, the opposite of what you want here, and they also tend to burn out many motors if you try to run them at ultra slow speeds- most motors are designed with the speed of the motor, say 1725 rpm, heavily contributing to cooling, by using stamped fan plates. Slower speed, no cooling, motor dies. In many cases, if you want a proper tool, it really helps to look at how they "really" do it in industry. And then, accept the fact that, to move metal in large amounts, it takes MONEY. Some people are incredible scroungers, its true. But they are still scrounging machines and parts that were expensive to begin with. Many people use old metal lathes for twisters- in many parts of the country, its possible to find an older, bigger lathe, practically free. Of course, a decent 16" x 60" Monarch or American Pacemaker might weigh 6000 to 10,000 lbs- so you need a forklift and a big truck. But they make great twisters- the bed is already there, with a nice moveable tailstock, they are geared down for slow speeds, and require very little adaptation- mostly just dies to hold the material. Hydraulic motors would work as well- but a hydraulic system is complicated and more expensive, usually, than just a gear motor or a gear reducer. You need a motor, a pump, hose connections, and a hydraulic motor. Even used, that adds up. ![]() Elevator Motor
visitor -
Tuesday, June 29, 2010 - 2:04pm
Thanks so much for all the input. It will take me a few days to read it all when I have time but I can tell you guys know what your talking about. It is a much older motor. I don't know the specifics yet. The building is about 100yrs old but I don't know when elevator was installed. I am working on getting more information now. I figured I would get some good responses that I was certain I would learn something from. I have no great need for this piece of machinery now but I am hoping to in the future. I can definitely see how a pipe threader could work, as well. We have a Re-store where I live and I might come across one again. Thanks to all and I will check back for more info. ![]() I probably didn`t explain
Daedalus -
Tuesday, June 29, 2010 - 10:13pm
I probably didn`t explain myself well when it came to the VFDs.I wasn`t suggesting they alone be used to turn a motor way down as that would just overheat and fry it as you explained so well.What I had intended to suggest was that you could use one in conjunction with a reduction gear box and you would have something that would operate at a speed that had low yet variable RPMs at the output shaft yet still have a high enough motor speed to keep things cool,supply enough torque and still have the advantages of ramp up/down and an electronic brake. In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. ![]() One good thing about
KevinW -
Thursday, July 1, 2010 - 10:54am
One good thing about blacksmith work to me is that there is always a differient way to do something, be it better faster cheeper easier, and the right way to do it will be the way that best gets it done for you. Until a job comes my way to warrent getting a twisting machine I'll continue using my cordless impact driver. Its just a little DeWalt job but will twist 5/8" sq. bar no problem as long as its good and hot. The quick chuck accepts a bit and the twelve sided ones ( torks bit??) fit square stock nicely. The other end of the bar goes in the vise. Its way faster than doing them by hand, gives good controle, minimum investment and you can drive screws with it too. KevinW ![]() [IMG]http://img.photobucket.c
visitor -
Thursday, July 1, 2010 - 12:38pm
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/rniemi/Balchairdet1.jpg[/IMG]
1", 3/4", and 5/8" square stainless, twisted hot. I kinda doubt an impact wrench would do this.
Or these- [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/rniemi/moretwists.jpg[/IMG] all 1" square hot rolled, mostly twisted hot.
![]() I dont know what happened
Ries -
Friday, July 2, 2010 - 7:14pm
![]() You`re such a tease!
Daedalus -
Friday, July 2, 2010 - 8:13pm
Looks like you spent a lot of time on that chair.looks like it had a turn in both the lathe and the milling machine before it landed in the twister. In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. ![]() Impact Driver
visitor -
Thursday, July 1, 2010 - 3:02pm
Great idea. I will still work on retrieving the motor if it seems viable for what I will eventually need. I never thought about using an impact driver for that. I love it when someone has simple and ingenuous ideas. Thanks again. |
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You need to find out a lot
You need to find out a lot more about the elevator motor.
Most of the older ones are extremely odd, by today's standards- many are DC, not AC, and often oddball voltages as well.
A 480 volt motor that is 20 hp, may be cheap, but if you only have available 50 amps of 220 volt power at your panel, its gonna cost you a bunch of money to find a 220 to 480 transformer, and put in big breakers, to power it.
What voltage, hp, phase, and type of motor is it?
Just because one famous guy built a twisting machine from an elevator motor doesnt mean every twisting machine should be made from an elevator motor, and only an elevator motor.
What you need in a twisting machine is slow speed, and torque.
This means, in most cases, it will work just fine with a regular old 3hp to 5hp motor from any machine- which is then run thru a gear reducer to slow it down.
My twisting machine, which is a top of the line German made Hebo, runs at around 7 to 10 rpm when twisting. This is optimum.
So if you had an elevator motor that was 80 rpm, or 300 rpm, it would still need gear reduction.
If you find an elevator motor that is really really slow, it could be great. Maybe. Depending on how big it is, how much juice it needs, and how it is controlled for speed.
If I was gonna build one from scratch, I would be looking for an appropriate gear reducer first, one that can take either a 1750 rpm motor, or a 3700 rpm motor, the two most common sizes, and slow the output down to 10 rpm. With a 1750, that means a 120/1 up to maybe a 180/1 gear ratio.
Something like one of these might work-http://www.gearreducers.net/products/type.php?tID=375&cID=148
Best is a gearmotor with an electric brake- much better than an elevator motor. Thats what mine has- a motor that is designed from the get go to be strong and slow, with enormous torque, but with a built in electric brake. This allows you to start and stop twisting precisely where you want.