Elevator motor for twisting metal

I may have the possibility to retrieve an old elevator motor from a building. I have visited someones website lately, who will remain nameless, and saw that someone has found an excellent new life for old elevator motors..........to make into a device that will twist very long pieces of metal. This certain someone does not seem to want to help me. OKAY MAN. I got it. I have contacted them twice with no response.........greedy with their secrets, I guess. I figure I will put it out there for all of my Artmetal friends. I am sure once I retrieve this motor I can figure it with some help of some mechanical geniuses I know but I would love to hear any positive comments or helpful tips from anyone on this site, especially if they have seen this work before. Any help would be appreciated so I can anticipate my needs for this big project.
Thanks to all


Ries's picture

You need to find out a lot

You need to find out a lot more about the elevator motor.
Most of the older ones are extremely odd, by today's standards- many are DC, not AC, and often oddball voltages as well.

A 480 volt motor that is 20 hp, may be cheap, but if you only have available 50 amps of 220 volt power at your panel, its gonna cost you a bunch of money to find a 220 to 480 transformer, and put in big breakers, to power it.

What voltage, hp, phase, and type of motor is it?

Just because one famous guy built a twisting machine from an elevator motor doesnt mean every twisting machine should be made from an elevator motor, and only an elevator motor.

What you need in a twisting machine is slow speed, and torque.
This means, in most cases, it will work just fine with a regular old 3hp to 5hp motor from any machine- which is then run thru a gear reducer to slow it down.
My twisting machine, which is a top of the line German made Hebo, runs at around 7 to 10 rpm when twisting. This is optimum.
So if you had an elevator motor that was 80 rpm, or 300 rpm, it would still need gear reduction.

If you find an elevator motor that is really really slow, it could be great. Maybe. Depending on how big it is, how much juice it needs, and how it is controlled for speed.

If I was gonna build one from scratch, I would be looking for an appropriate gear reducer first, one that can take either a 1750 rpm motor, or a 3700 rpm motor, the two most common sizes, and slow the output down to 10 rpm. With a 1750, that means a 120/1 up to maybe a 180/1 gear ratio.

Something like one of these might work-http://www.gearreducers.net/products/type.php?tID=375&cID=148

Best is a gearmotor with an electric brake- much better than an elevator motor. Thats what mine has- a motor that is designed from the get go to be strong and slow, with enormous torque, but with a built in electric brake. This allows you to start and stop twisting precisely where you want.


Rich Waugh's picture

Stephani, Everything Ries

Stephani,

Everything Ries said is excellent advice. No surprise there.

Whenever you're dealing with salvaged motors you need to be very mindful of their power requirements - particularly industrial or commercial motors. Typically, those motors if less than thirty or forty years old, tend to be 3-phase. If you don't have 3-phase in your shop that means you'll need a phase converter which can be as expensive as the motor or more so. By the same token, single phase motors aren't available in more than 7-1/2 horsepower so you're limited there, though 3 hp is plenty for a twister that will handle 1/2" square or even 3/4" square with sufficient gear reduction or if the steel is hot.

My own power twister is a salvaged pipe threading machine. It's an older Rigid 300, I believe, and turns a bit too fist but it works okay. I'm planning, if I ever get a job that requires a lot of twisted pickets or something like that, to put a brake on it. It will be simple enough to outfit it with a disc break salvaged from a small car. Someday.

Almost all the twisting I ever need to do is just one to five pieces at a time, so I do it manually in a vise with a twisting wrench. I'm almost always twisting 1/2" or 5/8" square bar so I do it hot. 1/4" or 3/8" I can twist cold. Cold twisting is really the best if you want uniform twists, since the temperature affects the ease with which the metal twists. Room temperature is nice and constant, while a heated bar is colder at the ends than in the middle and the twist will be tighter where it is hotter. Like i said, for one or two pieces twisting hot by h and works fine. If you're like Ries and do big projects where you may be twisting two or three hundred pieces at a time and they all have to match, then a power twister like his Hebo is the only way to fly.

Rich


Daedalus's picture

Building custom equipment

Before you commit large amounts of money to modifying something that may be only used occasionally.You may want to think about investing in a drive system that will serve you well in multiple functions.
A smaller HP motor powering a hydraulic pump mounted on a plate on top of a tank on wheels will allow you more torque over a wider RPM range that an electric motor alone and that same drive system can be fitted with quick disconnects and wheeled around to power a twisting machine on one side of the shop or a large hydraulic forging press in another area or a bending machine somewhere else.
Another thing to think about is buying surplus 3 phase equipment and buying a VFD control that can be moved from machine to machine.The VFD(Variable Frequency Drive) will give you infinite rpm control from zero up to max RPM for the motor on the machine and can also run it in reverse,ramp up and down to a set speed and electronically brake whatever 3 phase motor it`s hooked up to up to the max HP rating for the drive.
Many paths to the same destination.Some are more adaptable and versatile than others.
That fellow with the elevator motor twist machine may just have had extensive electronic experience or access to someone who did.That made it cheap and easy for him.Your story could be a whole lot different.

In theory there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice there is.


Ries's picture

the fellow with the elevator

the fellow with the elevator motor is Al Paley.
And he just happened upon a big, high torque, low speed motor.
But he also has a huge shop, 3 phase, a day job, employees, large budgets, and at the time he built that twisting machine, something like 30 years ago, there was very little info about twisting machines available.
So it was very seat of the pants, as I understand it.
He used it to twist huge pieces- 4" square and bigger, from what I understand, and I think its 20 or 30 hp.

So its not directly applicable to the problem of a small shop with no money.

VFD's can, theoretically, control motors down to very slow speeds- but they tend to have less and less torque at slow speeds, the opposite of what you want here, and they also tend to burn out many motors if you try to run them at ultra slow speeds- most motors are designed with the speed of the motor, say 1725 rpm, heavily contributing to cooling, by using stamped fan plates. Slower speed, no cooling, motor dies.
This is why you cant just slap a VFD on a 14" Delta vertical bandsaw, and make it a metal cutting saw- you get, instead, a slow running blade with no power and a short lived motor.

In many cases, if you want a proper tool, it really helps to look at how they "really" do it in industry. And then, accept the fact that, to move metal in large amounts, it takes MONEY. Some people are incredible scroungers, its true. But they are still scrounging machines and parts that were expensive to begin with.

Many people use old metal lathes for twisters- in many parts of the country, its possible to find an older, bigger lathe, practically free. Of course, a decent 16" x 60" Monarch or American Pacemaker might weigh 6000 to 10,000 lbs- so you need a forklift and a big truck. But they make great twisters- the bed is already there, with a nice moveable tailstock, they are geared down for slow speeds, and require very little adaptation- mostly just dies to hold the material.

Hydraulic motors would work as well- but a hydraulic system is complicated and more expensive, usually, than just a gear motor or a gear reducer. You need a motor, a pump, hose connections, and a hydraulic motor. Even used, that adds up.
For instance, a mid range set of angle rolls will use a standard electric motor and a gear reducer. Maybe 10 grand for a model that will do 2" pipe. It will have 2 driven rolls, chain and sprocket connected.
Step up to a Roundo, the top of the heap for angle rolls- 2 hydraulic motors drive the driven rolls, one each, and it will have a hydraulic cylinder moving the pinch roll up and down. Figure triple the price- $30k- at a minimum. Its a more expensive, more complicated, but better way to do it.


visitor's picture

Elevator Motor

Thanks so much for all the input. It will take me a few days to read it all when I have time but I can tell you guys know what your talking about. It is a much older motor. I don't know the specifics yet. The building is about 100yrs old but I don't know when elevator was installed. I am working on getting more information now. I figured I would get some good responses that I was certain I would learn something from. I have no great need for this piece of machinery now but I am hoping to in the future. I can definitely see how a pipe threader could work, as well. We have a Re-store where I live and I might come across one again. Thanks to all and I will check back for more info.
STEF


Daedalus's picture

I probably didn`t explain

I probably didn`t explain myself well when it came to the VFDs.I wasn`t suggesting they alone be used to turn a motor way down as that would just overheat and fry it as you explained so well.What I had intended to suggest was that you could use one in conjunction with a reduction gear box and you would have something that would operate at a speed that had low yet variable RPMs at the output shaft yet still have a high enough motor speed to keep things cool,supply enough torque and still have the advantages of ramp up/down and an electronic brake.
Where I live(Maine coast) you can pick up used hydraulic components for far less than high HP electric motors and/or reduction gear boxes(hydraulics motors pack a lot more punch in a far smaller size too).That makes it more cost effective for us to have a mobile power supply/drive that can be hooked up into multiple machines.I see much the same approach being used where things like farm and heavy equipment are being parted out cheap.I keep forgetting that not all areas of the country are so lucky.
If you have access to cheap components,hydraulics will allow infinitely variable speed in both forward and reverse,instant stop/braking and high torque at very low speeds.
Either way has proven to be cheaper up here than rewiring the shop for 3 phase(if you can even get the power company to supply it) or 460 volts as standard 220 shop voltage will power either a VFD or hydraulic system.

In theory there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice there is.


KevinW's picture

One good thing about

One good thing about blacksmith work to me is that there is always a differient way to do something, be it better faster cheeper easier, and the right way to do it will be the way that best gets it done for you.

Until a job comes my way to warrent getting a twisting machine I'll continue using my cordless impact driver. Its just a little DeWalt job but will twist 5/8" sq. bar no problem as long as its good and hot. The quick chuck accepts a bit and the twelve sided ones ( torks bit??) fit square stock nicely. The other end of the bar goes in the vise. Its way faster than doing them by hand, gives good controle, minimum investment and you can drive screws with it too.

KevinW


visitor's picture

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.c

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/rniemi/Balchairdet1.jpg[/IMG]

 

1", 3/4", and 5/8" square stainless, twisted hot.

I kinda doubt an impact wrench would do this.

 

Or these-

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/rniemi/moretwists.jpg[/IMG]

all 1" square hot rolled, mostly twisted hot.

 

 


Ries's picture

I dont know what happened

big twistsbig twistsI dont know what happened here- but somehow I wasnt logged in, AND the IMG links dont work right, even though the bbs software says it supports IMG. So lets try again.
stainless chairstainless chair
here are two examples of bigger twists I have done, 1" solid square, in mild and stainless. I also have twisted a fair amount of 1 1/4" and 1 1/2" round, and all of that requires a lot of torque and horsepower.


Daedalus's picture

You`re such a tease!

Looks like you spent a lot of time on that chair.looks like it had a turn in both the lathe and the milling machine before it landed in the twister.
You don`t seriously think we`re going to sit still(pun intended) for just detail shots do ya?
We want to see the whole enchilada in all it`s sittin` splendor! If the undercarriage looks that good then the seat and back have got to be a magnum opus!
Be sure to include at least one shot of the maker testing it out if you would.We want to see that smile too.

In theory there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice there is.


Stefani's picture

twists

Nice work. I think you need to post a pic of the whole chair with you and that perty smile. LOL. Really.


visitor's picture

Impact Driver

Great idea. I will still work on retrieving the motor if it seems viable for what I will eventually need. I never thought about using an impact driver for that. I love it when someone has simple and ingenuous ideas. Thanks again.
STEF