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Ethical/etiquette question
Rob Sigafoos -
Monday, June 30, 2008 - 6:47am
I am getting ready to entertain some commissions for gates and hinges, but I am clueless as how to price them. In part, I am still new enough at this that my techniques are not as efficient as they need to be, and if I price things according to an hourly rate, I would need to charge the equivalent of the GNP for a small nation just to break even. Although there has been a bit of discussion on this site about how to price things, no one ever mentions what they charged for a particular piece. Does asking what someone got for a particular piece they have posted exceed the bounds of ethics and etiquette on this site?  Thanks Warren- I can
Rob Sigafoos -
Monday, June 30, 2008 - 10:52am
Thanks Warren-  Great Question
Chuck Girard -
Monday, June 30, 2008 - 5:38pm
Rob,  Hi Rob, In my opinion you
eligius1427 -
Monday, June 30, 2008 - 6:30pm
Hi Rob, In my opinion you have to first decide whether you want to make a profit. Second whether it's an art piece or a piece that a skilled tradesman is creating(which you are both an artist and a skilled tradesman). If it is an art piece pricing is much looser(not necessarily cheaper, just looser rules). You definitely want to cover your materials, charge for your time(how much is a big debate), and then you can also charge above and beyond that for its' artistic value. I've seen paintings that took 4 hours to paint go for $3000 and furniture that took 1 week go for $250. If it's a piece that your making as a skilled tradesman and designer/artist then you can get down to hourly rates and material markups and such. A lot of people think business books are hog wash and such, but the basics of business has not changed much in a long long time. You've got to make more than you spend. A book that really helped me was called "Markup and Profit: A Contractors Guide" by stone. It is meant for contractors not specifically metalworkers so you have to apply it to your business but it covered a lot of subjects that i overlooked and it's meant for trades people. I personally have an estimation sheet that walks me through the entire project, so i don't forget anything. It starts with design time and ends with installation. When you actually charge for all of the time you work you'd be surprised at how expensive it is. I use 4 hourly rates depending on the expertise needed and local averages. The lowest rate is for grunt work, ie cutting, grinding, etc, the second rate is for skill that i know ok but haven't become proficient(ie blacksmithing for me right now), the third is for skills that i think are slightly above average(and is based roughly around hourly rates for different shops in the area), and the fourth and highest are for skills that i believe make me stand out as an "expert"(not really an expert, but compared to others in the area). I would be happy to send you pricing of my projects if you contact me through my email, but you have to take in consideration your location. A railing in my market that ran $5000 might run $15000 in Janet's market with no design changes. Figuring out pricing is scary but not the tough part, actually charging what you figured out you need to charge, that's the tough part. Furthermore, you begin to set precedence when you start taking on commissions. I charged way too little my first 2-3 years and lost almost all of those customers when i started charging appropriately. Your quality and craftsmanship is top notch so don't sell your self short. The one exception is if you will gain a lot of exposure, and then you can trim off some of the costs since it's like buying advertising. Let us know if you come up with some new tricks. Jake Jake- Thanks for taking the
Rob Sigafoos -
Tuesday, July 1, 2008 - 12:12pm
Jake-  your life for sale
Giusseppe -
Tuesday, July 1, 2008 - 8:23am
everything you are provides others the privilege to share in what you give ...  Pricing
Nic East -
Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 5:58am
Pricing is mostly about feelings. Most decisions we make are also about feelings. Therefore, we must hone our empathy for the client/patron's needs/desires while being oh so sensitive to our own value as an Artist-Craftsman. Sometimes, when our belly is full and life is good, we can offer discounts, but in the interest of success in our profession, we MUST take care of our suppliers, subs and services else we will not last long in the fray. So, my advice is; don't give anything away that you might want later just to be popular with avaricious clients AND be open to the genuine needs of serious Art lovers who may not be as wealthy as you might hope. I work that way. Nic East, Jim Thorpe, PA USA  More on pricing
Jamie Santellano -
Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 4:15pm
WOW! I think your right about feelings, wanting to sell to get out there, and also keeping the business going. I've been working on my website for the last 5 months now, and all the books that I have read keep referring to the "Target Audience," which I see now is key to pricing as well as self promotion. Knowing what the materials cost is the start, but to know who your target audience is is really what it really boils down to. In creating a website, knowing your target audience will help to design it, and it really is personal. One must turn their attention inward, so that one can really tune in to their self worth, which is an extension to all that radiates outward. I think along the way one must understand that those who won't pay what you feel your worth will simply walk away, and those who will pay are the ones that will provide the most business. This is how the clientele starts! I learned this from doing hair, and trust me there's a lot of people who won't pay, and then there are the ones that will, and they become the bread and butter of your business. It seems psychologically that when something is expensive most tend to have this idea that it must be the best, or that the quality is the finest, knowledge, and skill, or even talent for that matter are top notch. When in essence the client is tuning into the vibration that one exudes when self confidence is high. As much as their tunning into us we must do the same, and that is when intuition kicks in and a certain price for the job comes to mind. At that point what ever price that comes to mind usually feels right. Cheers, Jamie Santellano  Hey Rob
gillis -
Tuesday, July 1, 2008 - 9:24am
gillis  For the market I am in that
Nathan Logsdon -
Tuesday, July 1, 2008 - 10:21am
For the market I am in that would be a fair price. In my market it'd probably
eligius1427 -
Tuesday, July 1, 2008 - 11:03am
In my market it'd probably be closer to $2000-$2500 Jake Gillis- This is an amazing
Rob Sigafoos -
Tuesday, July 1, 2008 - 12:05pm
Gillis- This brings up another point
Nathan Logsdon -
Tuesday, July 1, 2008 - 12:47pm
This brings up another point on pricing. Time in our field is either a prized commodity or an afterthought. Sometimes I look at a design and think "that shouldnt take long" and then you get your cut list. DOH!! I think Jake and I chimed in for Janet once about this and I said something to the affect of take what you think you can build it for-double or triple that and then add 25% so when it is allsaid and done and you've spent three times the time you expected- you may still turn a profit. At least break even.  Hi Rob, I live down far in
NELSON -
Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 3:10pm
Hi Rob, I live down far in South America, and although we do business in such different ways and places, there are some facts about artwork that seem to apply almost everywhere on this earth. Recently, I came across an article focus on the economics of different careers. Guess what! You`d probably guessed right, artists are among the worst paid together with some other I forgot. Artwork, and agriculture, are ways of living for the most part. Of course, there are some outstanding artist that make it big, as there are some that barely make enough to eat. That said, it`s my believe that if one enjoys artwork and make enough to satisfy one´s basic needs, we should feel blessed! Many people work for a living and don`t enjoy what they do, that`s really sad. Now, regarding pricing I started charging cheap to very reasonable prices, but as one`s work starts to be known, prices start to hit higher, and some clients wanting very exclusive work may want prices you simply won`t put up with. Some people manage to get away with good deals from us the artists you know. It´s so subjective at times, but for the most part what the guys have said on the topic is quite right. I`m using a strategy that seems to work most of the time. Say a client wants a garden rail and you take note of the characteristics and or elements he`d like to have on that work. For us it`s easy to imagen and design what will fit the client, but there are so many ways of making it, and there are some variables we can play with like material thickness for instance, which has a big impact on material cost and labor to forge a thicker stock let`s say. I present al least two or three designs based on clients neeed, without specifying at first exact dimensions of metal to be used. depending on the client,s reaction to my design proposal, I`ll adjust my materials to what he `s willing to pay... sounds tricky huh! Well, for me it works at least 75% of the time. Don`t know if you guys could get away with this management practices. Best luck. Rob. nelson.  Great Question
Frank Castiglione -
Tuesday, July 1, 2008 - 6:05pm
Hi Rob,  one more
warren -
Tuesday, July 1, 2008 - 11:48pm
Since I do not do this full time it is really hard to justify what I charge...........people think that it is a hobby. So I charge by the month. warren  I quess I'll add my 2cents!!!!
SteelyJan -
Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - 6:09am
Hi Rob, |
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ArtMetal
Nah
Rob,
Couple of things come into play............prices nobody likes to share sometimes because they too did not charge enough and gave up some free labor .............or they are so famous they charge what ever they want and get paid.
If you do it in private most will share, some have the prices on their websites.
Me I am not sure what to charge either and I have been doing it for 35 years. Always a gamble because for me I like to venture out to new techniques. That time I usually do for free. No matter what it seems we never charge enough.
warren
http://www.metalrecipes.com