Perhaps I should clarify. The classification of Artist vs Craftsman is a matter of goals and attitude as much as quality of technique. Art, to me is a creative, novel, original approach, while craft is somewhat more commercial in intent, yet no less creative. Also, an artist may from time to time work as a craftsman and vice versa. We all change hats and the only reason for those "hats" is to differentiate between intention and not technique or even quality. A great technician may either be a great craftsman or a great artist and sometimes craftsmen raise their content to high art. It is mostly attitude and neither artist nor craftsman has a "higher calling", it is just that we may have a slightly different focus in our approach.

Nic East, Jim Thorpe, PA USA
Creativity begins with a novel thought.

Frank:
I live in a place called Jim Thorpe. The reason it is named that is we changed that former town name from Mauch Chunk to J.T. 54 years ago because we were promised a hospital if we did. The promise was made by Grace Thorpe, Jim's daughter. we conducted a nickel-a-week campaign and saved enough to not only change the name, but build a red granite monument to the man who became the Athlete of the 20th Century. Well, we never got the hospital and fifty years later, the tribe even wanted the remains back! That's quintessential Indian Giving!
So, some gifts are not free.
Now, when you talk about Artistic Talent, you seem to be saying that the propensity for creating art is born into us and it is inexerable. Perhaps, but I know that I had to spend thirty years learning Art's value and some of the techniques with which to express it. To me, Art is a developmental process with many attitudes and technical processes that must be learned and honed to that razor-sharpness that bespeaks the true Artist-Craftsman rather than a crude imitation. Of necessity, we must learn to use Art to communicate our value systems, esthetic ideas and cultural schemes in a way that others can understand, be interested in and entertained or otherwise stimulated by. As you say above, Art must move you and be renewing in order for you to value it, otherwise it is so much hokum.
It may be possible to have Art without any technical craftsmanship, but I doubt that it would function as well as a highly crafted artifact, which tells me that Craft is foundational to Art and Art is at the basis of Craft.

Nic East, Jim Thorpe, PA USA
Creativity begins with a novel thought.

Hi Nic,
I still contend that a gift has no price, no strings attached.Sorry about the Jim Thorpe thing, it never was a gift, it sounds more like a bad contract.
I did not say that art was a propensity nor inexerable.What was implied is that artistic talent is a gift, it wasn't bargained for, or distributed in even measure.
The expression of art can improve with effort, but practice doesn't change our gifts.
Genius (an abused term)can supersede all the rules for greatness.Technical prowess sure can make the rest of us look mo betta.
Frank

Frank:
I wonder about artistic talent. I mean how to define it so that it can be used without denigrating the energy that one must put into creating.
I believe genius is at least partly physically manifested by certain differences form the normal human brain. An enlarged Hippocampus or Hypothalamus for starters and The famous savant, Kim Peake has no Corpus Collosum. Are genius and talent related in some way? In what way?

Nic East, Jim Thorpe, PA USA
Creativity begins with a novel thought.

Hi Nic,
We are not created the same.Some one can jump well, someone can hear better etc.Sometimes anomalies occur way below what might be considered the norm; and on the other hand way above.What is measured to decide someone is a genius? IQ perhaps. A battery of tests that measure many facets would be of some advantage. I think that the savant would do well in a narrow portion of the whole spectrum of human abilities.
Do you think that creativity is not an ability? Is it evenly dispensed to each human, or do some people have more or less?
I personally think that it is an ability and that some people not only have more but have WAY more than most. The synergism of all our abilities determines how we interact in the real world.
Frank

Hi Matt:
How do we judge the qualities of Art? How can we agree that it is good or bad or ho-hum? I think we perceive Art through our personal value filters, so what we value most we like most while others may disagree. That's the rub; we need some sort of semi-standard for evaluating Art vs Craft as we encounter it.

OK, so what should it be? I'll give it a try. When we first see it, does it attract our interest? When we really look at it, does it continue to reveal subtle nuances. Does it "inform us"? Does it keep on surprising our senses? Is it mysterious? When we go away and return does it reveal other secrets? Does it touch us emotionally? Does it engage our intellectual or technical interest? In short, can we be friends with it?

If the answer is no, then we pass on to the next piece of Art stuff and give that our attention.

Nic East, Jim Thorpe, PA USA
Creativity begins with a novel thought.

It is so good to read your thinking, Jake. To me, Art is an adventure while craft is a journey in that, as you say the artist doesn't quite know where he or she is going, but recognises when they arrive. Craftsmen often are a bit more technique-oriented and like to have clear goals. Most of the artist's work is intuitive while the craftsman's is cerebral. Both methods are valid and useful in the marketplace.
I, too have noticed the public's snobbishness concerning art and condesention toward craftsmen. I wear both hats as you seem to and each is a kind of protective coloration that allows us to be recognised, respected and get our price. Personal self respect and integrity are the prime movers in creative politics. We need validation and acknowledgement for that is similar to applause in the performing arts.
I agree that an unenlightened negative critique of my work will rile me in the direction of combat. Call my work anything but shoddy!
Thanks for your thoughtful comments,

Nic East, Jim Thorpe, PA USA
Creativity begins with a novel thought.

Hi Keith,

I was an architecture student as well, and although I agree with you that there are some ingenious and talented architects that probably should be considered artists, many archs today fall well short of that status. In my experience, architects and designers have been much more concerned with budget than ingenuity and quality. I always pitch a solid, make it to last 100 yrs design first, and usually have to start sacrificing material, design, labor, because they saw a bathroom faucet that costs $2800. They have usually been much more concerned with the immediate wow effect instead of the wow effect 10 years from now. This is usually achieved by sacrificing quality, a railing or siding that should last 30-100 years, so they can add sparkle and bling, a faucet that will be probably be changed in 5 years whether it needs to or not. That's what separates good designer/artists/architects/etc, they usually achieve a final product that is appreciated for decades. I had the pleasant opportunity to work with a really good architect out of Seattle and WOW, what a difference. He was all about doing things the right way, so the projects looked good and lasted. I was so used to working with budget driven architects that he had to tell me to stop trying to find the most economical way and just find the right way, material, etc. I couldn't just charge or do what i wanted, but he would pay for quality and ingenuity and came to expect it. The client wanted the best, not something that looked like the best.

Hopefully you are or will be the kind of architect that will design projects our great grand children will still be able to appreciate and enjoy.

Jake

There are levels to creativity and while I do not dispute your list and can add an equal amount, still there are a thousant times as many who are hacks. I have known quite a few of those also. They are very popular in the marketplace because the public understands cape cod, log houses and glass boxes, which are all derivitive and have no uniqueness. When I talk of creative artistic architects, I mean those who are constantly reinventing themselves and stylistically metamorphosing so that,while their work is recognizable, it is also quite vital. Frank Geary and Paolo Soleri come to mind.
When you are constantly renewing and experimenting, designing as you ride your creative shockwave, you will have reached the level of Art with your architecture. Until then, most of what you will be required to do is repetitive and conforming. I wish you well with your selected career and hope that you do become one of that very rare breed, for architecture is indeed the "Mother of the Arts".

Nic East, Jim Thorpe, PA USA
Creativity begins with a novel thought.

thanks nic.

we can agree on at least one point: "..architecture is indeed the 'Mother of the Arts.' "

keith

Hi Rick, thanks for dropping by:
Yes, I agree that art must touch you in sensitive places such as values and aesthetics. It should stimulate you to emulate its energy and strive to better its techniques. Art is a meal for the senses that makes us ever hungrier.
A former teacher once remarked that, to him art was a well functioning machine. I think he was speaking in the broadest strokes, defining "machine as an arrangement of somatic content that serves a higher purpose".

Nic East, Jim Thorpe, PA USA
Creativity begins with a novel thought.

Well there is one thing that I really like about this site.........the name of it ARTMETAL.

 For years I have tried to fit into the different types of what people call art. Most give you a definition that it needs to be a sculpture to be a piece of art. Well I do not just make sculptures.

So when people ask if I am an Sculptor I can say yes. If they ask me if I am a Craftsman, I can say yes. If they ask me if I am a Artist, I can yes, If they ask me if I am a Metal-smith, I can say yes. So I end up being a SCAM. (Just a little joke)

See it really does not matter what I make or what I am I just have fun making what I make and try to make money off of what I make. They can call what I make what ever they want and when I die it does not matter what I died as.

 warren

http://www.metalrecipes.com

I have never enjoyed being part of a SCAM until now.

Rick Sidebottom
Aspiring Metal Artist

Warren;

You forgot one - teacher. Can you work that in there somewhere.

Now for the real reason for this post and it is a quibble from QQ's last post. I have to take exception to:

#5 A nonscientific branch of learning; one of the liberal arts.

I believe this is a misconception and a false and artificial structuring. People see art as the opposite of science and it is not.

Good science is good art. It meets all the criteria.

You are pushing boundaries.
You are using you own resources - both inside and outside yourself to put together something (rather real, a theory, a math concept, or an experiment to shed light on something).
It is for others to access and "judge" on its merits, results, and fitness.
Art is about discovery and so is science.
There is beauty and elegance in science and scientific experimentation.

I can give an example.
There was a study on night-flying birds that had to do with navigation. Many of our smaller birds migrate at night - lessens the chance of being spotted by a predator and also gives them more time to feed and rest.

This test was designed to test if the birds can navigate by stars. How to do its was the problem.

They were wild birds so you could not let them go and follow hundreds of them around. So they had to be captive, but how could you tell if they would fly around randomly or have a direction to their flight.

They have to be captive, have room to fly, be able to see the stars, minimize or eliminate other variables in the experiment, and also have a means of recording the direction they try to fly to. It also has to have the ability to be replicated so others can also conduct the experiment.

Someone came up with a simple, elegant, and rather inexpensive experiment to test navigation by stars. They built a flight cage with a steeply sloped floor. The top of the cage was covered with screen to keep the birds contained while letting them see the stars. The sloped part is covered with paper and in the middle of the cage is a flat spot that is an ink pad. The birds are fed well before being placed in this cage for the night.

The birds have ink on their feet and when thy fly they will land on the white paper and the ink will leave a record of the direction they flew. It will then be easy to see which way the birds tried to fly all night. If they did not navigate by stars the foot impressions would be equal and random on the paper in the cage.

If, on the other hand, they can navigate by the stars, a favored direction should show up from the prints left when they landed. Statistical analysis could be done comparing the data.

Almost all the prints were headed toward one direction proving that night flying birds can navigate by the stars among other ways.

To me, this elegant in its simplicity experiment was art.

The same can be said, I think, about concepts that are new and spring completely from someones mind. String theory, chaos theory, quantum theory all come to mind. They are breaking with traditional modes of thinking and viewing our universe and, although experiments are hard to set-up, the ones that have been done are proving that there is some merit to these alternate (and sometimes bizarre) ways of viewing our universe.

It is also an open ended art form in that the art is never complete. Others use it as a basis for their own experiments or thoughts and take it further creating another piece.

Thanks.

Eric

Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine.
Sir Arthur Eddington (1882 - 1944)

QuiQue: You obviously have thought long and hard about this important subject. I love your definition of creativity as God's Work. If we are indeed little bits of God-stuff co-creating the shared cultural universe, then that certainly is the work of the Creator through us. I also think, by extension, that the energy that drives us to create is very akin to Love. It attracts, energises, satisfies and horrifies like nothing else I can name. The act of being in the Flow of the creative process is one of the highest of highs and far better than booze or drugs. It is better for all concerned, for we artists and craftsmen are the tastemakers and lifestyle designers for all others. I try to do my creative play as a kind of meditation and do not let myself become distracted. Of course the telephone sometimes can stimulate resentment as it breaks my flow of work. Yes, Art can always exist independent of peer approval. Constantin Brancusi worked alone in his studio for 30 years without exhibiting anything. Then BANG, he exploded upon the art scene with a number of "masterpieces". It has often been said that Art is about process rather than outcomes for the artist, but the finished artifact or performance or whatever must stand by itself when it is complete. Let me inject another element into our mix: how does Design fit in? Here, I'll give you a start. Design is a deliberate planning process aimed toward specific or generalized results. Since Art is based upon our imaginative, fantastic or creative drives, it is a discovery process, fraught with adventures for the Artist’s mind. One solves problems with a product in mind, while the other has the encouragement of novelty as its goal.

Nic East, Jim Thorpe, PA USA Creativity begins with a novel thought.