ArtMetalsocial networking for the metal arts |
|
COPPER / STAINLESS CUT & WELD ?
NELSON -
Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 6:39pm
I`m trying to add a little tech to my too basic shop, and I need some advise as to what piece of equipment would do the most with the least money, tricky huh! I would like to cut and weld copper and stainless sheet (1-5 mm thick).TORCHMATE offers"Cutmaster 51" and "Cutmaster 81" as 40amp and 60amp plasma air cutters. As far as welding, I thought TIG weld would be best. The duty cycle I guess could be near 20-30 %.What about welding or cutting outdoors with such equipment(air draft...). Any of you has any experience with particular units, brands,etc.With so many gadgets and my lack of experience, is difficult to make up my mind. Thanks for your help. Nelson Rich: I thank you much for
NELSON -
Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 10:38pm
Rich: I thank you much for your extensive advise,but I`m still missing something about Cu welding.Actually,I wish to do with copper what I`m doing with mild steelsheet.Namely, after I make my basic armature,I tack a section of sheet and start forging it over the armature using a torch and hammers.Whenever I need, I will cut undesireable portions of the sheet with the torch itself, and so on. I`might be welding the copper sheet vertically, so I thought of using plasma in liu of torch as I would with mild steel sheet, but I`m guessing a regular cutting disc would take care of that. In all, I see TIC weld would not beat MIG in my case. Being that the case, what is the average consumption of Cu wire per inch welded, » reply Welding and forging
Gene Olson -
Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 10:53pm
Welding and forging copper. copper picks of Oxygen and takes it into solution as well as oxidizing, when this happens the metal gets brittle and unworkable. given excellent technique good shielding gas and deoxidized copper rod. your weld will come out only slightly more brittle than the parent material. But in the end it will not work as well as the parent material and will probably crack. (See all Rich's comments about quality machines and control above) Gene Olson » reply Gene makes some very good
Rich Waugh -
Monday, February 4, 2008 - 12:35am
Gene makes some very good points, Nelson. Copper has such a high affinity for oxygen that it is virtually impossible to weld it without at least some embrittlement. Post-weld annealing will help, but the oxide solution embrittlement will always be there. As Gene says, plan your work to accomodate the inevitable. You will have a nightmare trying to MIG weld the copper, I think. Deoxidized copper is oging to be tough to find in MIG wire, too. TIG is really the only good way to go for fusion welding copper. The nature of the MIG process (the filler creating the arc) is such that it is going to grossly oxidize the filler wire, resulting in a very weakened weldment I would think. Also, you'llhave sputterballs all over everywhere, necessitating a lot of cleanup time. As for inches of weld per foot of wire, that is an impossible question to answer as asked. It depends on the diameter of the filler wire or rod. With 2" diameter filler, it will only take an inch or so to run thirty or forty feet of weld, based on 1/4 stock thickness for weldment gap. More gap=more filler, less gap=less filler. Smaller filler means fewer feet of weldment, larger filler means more. It takes what it takes, and no one method uses less or more than another, in general. If we were talking millions of feet of machine welds, then it might make sense to calculate down to a gnat's ass, but for hand welding on a sculpture it is pretty meaningless. » reply Good lecture guys. The
NELSON -
Monday, February 4, 2008 - 9:48am
Good lecture guys. The amount of wire is not a concern at all anymore, and trying to get a piece of equipment to do the most for the least, simply doesn`t work! Gene and Rich thank you much for your tips. Nelson. » reply TIG and MIG of copper
raferguson -
Monday, February 4, 2008 - 11:48pm
A lot of good comments already. I Tig quite a bit of copper, 0.043 inch thick (1 mm). I generally have my Synchrowave 180 welder set at 90 amps or so. Periodically I wish that I had a bigger welder, but I have yet to turn my current welder past 120 amps, so I don't need it. Somebody I know just picked up a Synchrowave 250, I had a little envy there, especially when he brought it to my shop to test it out. I assume that the amperage is more or less proportional to the thickness, so 5 mm copper would require perhaps 400 amps. Stainless requires less current, of course. TIG and use outside are more or less incompatible, as has already been said. MIG, using a shielding gas, would be the same, I would think. The problem is the shielding gas blowing away, unless you have zero wind velocity, rare where I live. Stick and flux core are preferred if there is a breeze. You may find a bit of a challenge welding rod to sheet, or at least I have in the past. I would not totally discount MIG of copper, although I have never seen it done. The first google hit found Welding depot, which sells spools of 0.035 inch deoxidized copper wire. MIG welders are generally cheaper to buy than TIG welders, and of course much faster. TIG welds generally look nicer. Note that one reference I found said that 0.035 copper wire is generally used in the 145-185 amp range, 23 to 25 volts, 400 inches per minute, 30cfh argon, so forget 110V welders. Before you invest in a welder, if you have a friend with a decent MIG, buy a spool of deox copper wire and give it a try. A little trial and error to dial in, but it should work. Obviously you would use pure argon gas, not the mix they use with steel. I recently got a MIG, I may need to try copper with it sometime. Richard http://www.fergusonsculpture.com » reply hI RICHARD, I believe I`m
NELSON -
Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 9:51pm
hI RICHARD, I believe I`m better off now as to making a desition, from different aproaches. THANKS ! Nelson » reply |
|
Nelson, Stay away from
Nelson,
Stay away from discount house TIG or plasma units, they'll only give you headaches. TIG is all about control, and cheap units don't have the fine control necessary to do precision work.
Since you want to work with copper, you're going to need a pretty robust TIG machine, on the order of 250-300 amps I'd guess. Copper takes a BUNCH of heat! All that heat into the work also means a lot of heat into the torch, which can result in operator discomfort and reduced life of consumables, so get the water-cooled TIG torch option. You'll be really glad you did.
Plasma cutting is a really filthy nasty process, generating fumes, dirt, dust, spatter and stink. It's best done over a water table or at least outdoors. You'll also need an air compressor, don't forget. Personally, unless I was going to drive the plasma torch with a CAD/CAM arrangement, I'd probably invest in a good bandsaw instead. More versatile and cleaner all the way around.
TIG welding is not particularly well suited to outdoor applications, due to problems with breezes blowing your shield gas away from the weld puddle. To TIHG welde outdoors, you need to rig a windbreak and you may need to increase your shield gas flow, too. TIG welders also work fine as stick welders, so I'd just use stick for outside work. The nice thing about TIG is that it is so clean you can do it right in milady's parlor without stinking up the place or burning the drapes with sputterballs. By comparison, MIG is a very messy process. With MIG though, you can switch to flux-cored wire for outside work, but not so with TIG.
For TIG welders, if money is not an issue, look at the Miller Dynasty inverter TIG units. The smaller ones will run on either 110v or 220v, making them really nice for installation work on-site, and they'repretty compact and lightweight. The bigger ones will handle the h igh current needs of working with copper and aluminum, but the water cooling tower will make them less portable. You can always get separate regular torch if you need portability, of course. If the Dynasty is a bit rich for your budget, look at the Synchrowave units. They're transformer units and pretty heavy, but rock solildly built. If you plan to ever do any aluminum welding, you must have a unit that has AC welding capability. Keep that in mind, as it changes the price considerably.
I've only mentioned MIller, but Lincoln also makes decent welders. Again, whichever one your local dealer supports is the one to get. Stay away from discount brands and big box stores! If you want to save money on the Miller or Lincoln, check out Indianapolis Oxygen Company. They sell on Ebay and have great prices and service. You can Google 'em. I've dealt with them and been very happy.
For a plasma cutter, stick with the big names like Hypertherm or Thermal Dynamics or Miller. Yep, they cost more than the cheapies, but they last a long time and you can always get parts and service down the road when you need them. The off brand units get orphaned at a depressingly rapid rate, leaving you high and dry. It just isn't worth it, in my opinion.
I hope this helps somewhat. Other will no doubt have differing opinions, so listen to everyone before you decide on a course of action.