New to the community - questions about attaching brass

kasey - Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 12:49pm

Hi there -

I'm new to the community and am glad to be here :) My skill level pales in comparison to a lot of the work here, but I guess you have to start somewhere!

I'm a little stuck on a problem and was hoping maybe someone could help steer me in the right direction.

I'm making a birdcage dress/sculpture out of brass and am having some trouble getting the 1/16" round rod to attach to the 1/2" x 1/8" strap. It seemed to be working fine when I was doing it on a flat, horizontal surface, but now that I'm attempting to do it at some weird angles I'm just making a mess.

I'm currently trying to braze it together using Radnor Stay-Silv 5 and white brazing flux with an oxycetelene rig.

Here are photos of the dress that show the strap I'm trying to attach the round rod to (I'm trying to create the actual 'cage' with the round rod going horizontally):
Birdcage Dress 1
Birdcage Dress 2

Thanks so much in advance for any advice. Brass is a worthy opponent!

I'm imagining it will take some wrangling, but really hoping that there's some sort of solution.

Take care,
Kasey

*Sorry for the re-post, I realized that the first time I posted this it came up as a response to someone else's questions about brass welding...

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Hi Kasey and welcome to

eligius1427 - Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 5:16pm

Hi Kasey and welcome to Artmetal. I've have limited experience with brass and I was trying to weld it, but I might be able to offer a couple of suggestions.

First, since you don't have problems soldering in the flat position is it possible to position the framework so your always soldering in the flat position? Kind of a pain I realize, but a simple solution if it's possible.

Second, You might try flattening the 1/16" wire with a hammer where it crosses the the straps, giving you more surface area contact. Also might make sure your using a small, hot, and concentrated flame to get that small connection area hot faster than the surrounding strap material.

I personally prefer welding or brazing to soldering, but only because i'm not very good at the latter, lol.

Hopefully some of the others will chime in here too. There are many people on here with much more experience with brass.

The Dress frame looks really cool, be sure to post picts as it develops.

Jake

Jake Balcom
Mettle Design
Lincoln, NE

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if possible keep positioning

Canaday Designs - Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 5:27pm

if possible keep positioning your frame to do all of your welds in the horizontal/flat position. this will require a lot of clamps. be sure to skip (every third round +/-) around to not overheat and distort the flat bar.
this is a great form, please share the end result
Matt

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Welcome to ArtMetal,

Rich Waugh - Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 6:15pm

Welcome to ArtMetal, Kasey!

When soldering or brazing, keep in mind all the time that the filler metal will flow toward the point that is hottest. It will also flow toward the area that is cleanest and has a bit of texture to enhance capillary action. That means that you want to use a bit of 320 grit sandpaper to brighten the areas where you want the Stay-Silv to flow. Any areas that really don't want it to flow to can be effectively stopped-out by painting them with a bit of yellow ochre paste.

As mentioned, a torch that produces a small, hot flame is desirable, but use care not to overheat the area or you form oxides that prevent the flow of the molten metal. I also suggest that you use some sandpaper to scrup the surface of your Stay-Silv rod/wire and flux it lightly before beginning work. This helps it to flow smoothly once it reaches liquidus temp (around 1300F).

If you will slightly flatten the contact area of the rod it will increase the surface area for joining and help the Staty-Silv to flow. I'd suggest just giving it a couple of swipes with a fine double-cut file.

Once you have prepared the brazing rod, the brass rod and the flat strap, assemble the joint and hold it together with a clip. Small cotter pins work nicely for this, as the function much like a hairpin in this application. To keep the brazing from flowing onto them, treat them first by dunking for a minute or two in muriatic acid and then letting them air dry in a damp location. This will develop a thin rust film on their surfaces that will resist solder nicely. When you prepare them for the muriatic dunk, slip a wooden toothpick between the legs to hold them apart so the muriatic can get to the surfaces that are really going to contact the brass.

Assemble the joint, flux, heat quickly and carefull and apply the Stay-Silv while keeping the flame pointed the direction you want the solder to flow. It should work fine, regardless of position - vertical, horizontal or even upside down.

Keep the pictures coming, we love 'em!

Rich Waugh

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Thank you guys so much.

kasey - Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 8:24pm

Thank you guys so much.

This is all really useful.

I just ordered some cotter pins and am hoping that the extra steps in cleaning, filing, etc. will help.

I'll keep you posted on progress and let you know if it's working.

Just counted and there are close to 2000 attachment points...I should technically be *really* skilled at this by the time it's done :)

Thanks again - much appreciated.

Take care,
Kasey

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Hi all - Thanks for all of

visitor - Thursday, April 2, 2009 - 9:53pm

Hi all -

Thanks for all of the tips. I'm happy to report that the soldering is coming along nicely. After a lot of trial and error, using a propane torch, Harris Stay Clean flux and 60/40 lead solder seemed to do the trick. I was able to find some tiny c-clamps, so have individually clamped each one. Unfortunately the heat was melting spring clamps.

Someone had mentioned using a wet sponge to absorb some of the heat in tighter areas and that proved to be really useful.

Half of the cage portion of the dress is complete and the other side is well under way. It's exciting to have it all coming together!

Here are some pics:

http://atypicalart.com/birdcage/1.jpg
http://atypicalart.com/birdcage/2.jpg
http://atypicalart.com/birdcage/3.jpg
http://atypicalart.com/birdcage/4.jpg

Again, thanks much for the advice, it really helped steer me in the right direction :)

Take care,
Kasey

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Hi all - Thanks for all of

kasey - Friday, April 3, 2009 - 10:31am

Hi all -

The suggestion to use a wet sponge to absorb some of the heat in tighter areas proved to be really useful.

Half of the cage portion of the dress is complete and the other side is well under way.

Again, thanks much for the advice, it really helped steer me in the right direction :)

Cheers,
Kasey

Birdcage dress --> half complete!Birdcage dress --> another viewBirdcage dress --> processBirdcage dress --> tiny clamps

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Glad you got it all figured

eligius1427 - Friday, April 3, 2009 - 1:28pm

Glad you got it all figured out, love the progress picts. This is a really cool project and it looks fantastic so far, can't wait to see more.

Jake

Jake Balcom
Mettle Design
Lincoln, NE

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what a challenge! wish i

Paula - Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 8:25am

what a challenge! wish i knew more about brass.
Paula
Guthrie, MN

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Big project

warren - Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 9:54am

Kasey, wow quite the undertaking of a big project.
The information provided is really great. Couple of concerns is how are you applying the flux. Since the flux is a paste it can be difficult to isolate its location. What I like doing is taking some of the 1/16 rod you are using and make a small spatula. Heat the metal to almost flow temp of the flux and then apply just a small amount with the spatula to the joint. Also if you apply the solder to the metal when the metal is hot enough it should only take a very small amount of solder. When the messes occur it probably is because you are trying to melt the solder with the torch. As Matt method watch out for the brass to weaken from the heat.

www Metalrecipes -- heat and beat to the desired shape, repeat as necessary.
warren

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Thank you guys for the tips

kasey - Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 5:17pm

Thank you guys for the tips and I'm very flattered that you like the shape of the dress :)

I seem to be having some luck with lead solder and Harris Stay-Clean flux - here are images of progress:

http://atypicalart.com/soldering_brass.html

I think with some practice and working on the setup, the lead will work.

I am curious if a paint exists that I could use to cover the silver solder since it's so bright in comparison to the brass. I guess if I do it right it won't show too much.

Thanks so much for the advice, it's much appreciated.

Take care,
Kasey

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I should also mention that

kasey - Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 5:19pm

I should also mention that I'm using Mapp gas instead of acetylene, as it was burning too hot and going through the 1/16" rod...

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I solder with actylene and

marilyn - Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 9:52am

I solder with actylene and air and can't give you any better advice than what you have already recieved. What I can say is "WOW." I like the dress shape as it is. I like seeing so much of the body inside of it. However, you have the vision of what it should look like and I look forward to seeing that.

marilyn

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birdcage dress

lin - Monday, March 16, 2009 - 9:13am

Have you thought about doing cold connection such as rivets for part of the connections? If you did them out of brass, they would match. I haven't soldered brass, but when I do copper, I finish it with a solution that makes it copper colored. There is probably something that would make it brass colored. If all else failed, Sculpt Nouveau has a metal dye that might work. I hope you are not breathing the fumes from the solder and flux. Lin

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Hi Lin, Thanks, yes, I did

visitor - Thursday, April 2, 2009 - 9:44pm

Hi Lin,

Thanks, yes, I did use rivets wherever possible. They're great when they can be used. Thanks for the advice.

Cheers,
Kasey

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Thanks for the suggestions.

kasey - Friday, April 3, 2009 - 10:40am

Thanks for the suggestions. I used rivets wherever possible. Some of the connectors are brass hardware as well.

And yes, I'm using a respirator. Just the thought of lead in the lungs strikes a hefty amount of fear down my spine!

Take care,
Kasey

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The most common and most

Rich Waugh - Friday, April 3, 2009 - 8:29pm

The most common and most dangerous vector for lead entering the human body is skin contact. Wash thoroughly and wash often when working with lead. Don't smoke, don't eat, don't bite your nails, etc, until you've thoroughly scrubbed. If you have children, do not let them become exposed to your clothing after you've been working with lead, either. Childred are ten times as susceptible to the adverse effects of lead as adults are.

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