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Craft vs. Trade vs. Art vs Manufacturing?
eligius1427 -
Friday, January 25, 2008 - 5:28pm
For the past week or so I've been doing research for a Public Art Sculpture Proposal. While looking at existing sculptures around the country I came across an artist that seems to have done quite a few public sculptures including one right here in Nebraska. I'm not going to name the artist, but after seeing the process first hand of how he/she actually has the work fabricated by another party based off of their drawing/painting posed a question in my mind. What separates an artist/sculptor that designs and creates their own work from an artist/sculptor that designs their own work, but has some one else actually make it? Would that not make that person more of a designer than an artist? Much like an architect? From the information on this persons website and the numerous galleries and exhibitions he/she is definitely considered a sculptor. There is no doubt in my mind as to this person's artistic ability in drawing and painting thus earning the title of Artist for those abilities, but if the sculpture is being built by another party based on his/her drawing/painting wouldn't they in fact deserve the title of sculptor? If then he/she does deserve the title sculpture why would I want to labor over trying to make everything perfect by my own two hands when I could just contract out? With that strategy I could work on 10 large scale sculptures at once. Now it almost sounds like manufacturing. I certainly don't think I would put this person in the same category as some sculptor who sits in front of a giant piece of marble and chips away at it for a year with a hammer and chisel. This is the rub, If we were both to put sculptures of good design and equal quality side by side, this person would probably have the advantage based on final product, experience(20-30 yrs), and shear number of successful installations. However, take the same two designs and give us each a shop where we would have to create the sculpture ourselves and I would probably edge out, because they wouldn't have much experience actually creating the final piece if they could create anything at all. I have absolutely nothing against this person and their work is really great. In fact I applaud anyone that can make a living doing what they love. I am simply questioning the labels that we all use to describe ourselves. It is society/us that makes or allows the two types of artists to be considered the same. The Art vs Craft argument has been going on for years, I would love to hear everyone's take on this slant of an age old discussion. Jake  Arcaff It is my
arcaff -
Friday, January 25, 2008 - 8:48pm
Arcaff It is my understanding that architecture is one of the fine arts and therefore the architect an artist. However, there are some pieces of art which have to be designed by one person -the artist, to my understanding- and built by many others; such is the case of large public sculptures and beautiful buildings. Cinema, also, falls into this same category, by the way... The artist is the one that designs -or directs- and all the rest are part of the artist's crew, be it builders, welders or propmen. Michealgelo did not do the plaster for his frescoes; he only did the paintings... Was he supposed to do it? Did Rodin own the foundry? Of course, the creative process requieres many hands and minds to complete a specific piece: In a movie there are actors, which would be the most artistic contribution, but there are also propmen, lighting and gofers. in the same way, in a large public sculpture there is one head designer, the one that gives birth to the piece, and then there are surrounding artist such as welders and craftsmen and then there are gofers and general help. I guess the idea is Team work. » reply  Jake- I think the difference
Rob Sigafoos -
Saturday, January 26, 2008 - 6:01am
Jake- » reply  artist vs tech
visitor -
Saturday, January 26, 2008 - 7:41am
I dont write much about this stuff but I design and build my own sculptures and sometimes it is very hard to put the design I had in to three dementional form, I guess if I had lots of money I'd be famous I wouldnt have to worry how the piece is going together or trying so hard to stay with my original design when I mess up and the screw up looks better than my original design.. I have books of my designs I could have ten or twenty designs going at once..but I call myself an artisan because I do both design and build I dont think much of someone that has an idea and cant do it!!even though I sure wish I had more expertise and help in some forms of sculptures I do so my piece would look better BUT this is my piece and if I dont do the whole thing then Im just an idea man with no real talent for building it my self.. so much for fame but so much more for my own soul and well being the feeling of doing! When I look at my piece even though some tech could do it better from my idea its not really mine so even though I fail a million times on a piece the finished piece is like Frank S said in his song " I did it my way!!" please excuse my spelling I did it myself...........bob » reply  First off, the great thing
Ries -
Saturday, January 26, 2008 - 11:05am
First off, the great thing about art is that there are no definitions that hold for everyone. No registration boards, or licensing agencies, or trade organisations to tell you who "is" and who "isnt" an artist. As far as large scale sculpture goes, there are always people who enjoy doing every bit of it themselves, and are justifiably proud of having done so. If you go back in history, you can find example after example, however, of things that are undeniably sculpture, and "art" that were not done by the artist alone. Its really only in the postindustrial age that we have come to this idea that the work is somehow more authentic if the "artist" does it all- back in the day, it was an acknowledged fact that no one person could do it all. Really, when you get right down to it, what is important in the making of a sculpture is the decisions the artists makes- every time you come to a branch in the road, somebody has to pick which way to go. A good public artist will use whatever tools are required to get there- tools that might include a structural engineer, a lighting designer, a fabrication shop, a plating shop, a concrete sub, or who knows what else. But there are a few public art sculptors (again, no names) who literally do napkin drawings- crude, simple sketches- send them to a fabricator, and never see the piece til the dedication. So I would say how the piece is built does not make somebody an artist or not an artist- instead, its how closely the finished piece is to what the artist intended. There is no way, for instance, Anish Kapoor could have built Cloud Gate (the big silver bean in Chicago) by himself- it took a couple of hundred guys over a year to build it, and cost millions. http://www.lynnbecker.com/repeat/Gehry/kapoor.htm » reply  Well Said
Frank Castiglione -
Saturday, January 26, 2008 - 11:57am
Hi Ries, » reply Passion
Frank Castiglione -
Saturday, January 26, 2008 - 1:17pm
Hi Jake, » reply  I love all of the
eligius1427 -
Saturday, January 26, 2008 - 1:29pm
I love all of the discussion. First, I'd like to say I agree with everyone about needing and using help/assistance on large projects. I usually have some sort of help on about half of my projects whether it be laser cutting, grinding, or just man labor for installs. This assistance, however, is in conjunction with me working along side them. Even someone being there every day directing and making decisions counts as at least a little fabrication work in my book. Second, I don't doubt for one minute whether this person is an artist. He/she is a very talented artist. I feel however that dropping off a hand drawn rendering(worthy of framing)and a maquette to a fabrication company and discussing the project, letting them convert the drawings to CAD, letting them order and fabricate the steel, coming back to oversee a mock-up, letting them finish fabrication and painting, and then finally coming back for an install is a lot like a designer, not a sculptor. I do agree that a designer or architect could be considered an artist, but are they a sculptor? Could then a house be considered a sculpture since it could possibly evolve in the same way? Should one look upon this sculpture, "Cloud Gate", or a fantastic house with the same respect as that artist that personally sits in front of that piece of granite every day for a year? How about compared to a painting where the texture and color of every brush stroke comes into play? Does the process even matter or is art just art? Jake » reply Obviously, it matters to
Ries -
Saturday, January 26, 2008 - 6:02pm
Obviously, it matters to you. I think you are looking for some judgement from on high, as to who is an "artist" and who is a "designer". I would say we should evaluate every manmade object equally, and dont worry about categories. Some objects are entirely made by one person, some by a hundred. Is one intrinsically better than the other? Dont get too hung up on categories. Do what feels best for you, dont worry about the other guy. Of course, you get to pass judgement on every other piece of art- but only for yourself. I know a bunch of artists who do everything themselves, and arent very good. If, of course, the final piece is interesting. "Good" or "Bad" are totally subjective. Interesting- well thats something else again. » reply  Great Topic for Conversation
don thibodeaux -
Saturday, January 26, 2008 - 7:32pm
I think Ries's comments cover the way I look at things. It's up to each person and there approach to the work. It's an equation that changes constantly; so why let it come into play of the creative process. Don T. » reply The fact that it changes is
eligius1427 -
Saturday, January 26, 2008 - 9:07pm
The fact that it changes is basically why I brought it up in the first place, I guess. I was thinking how different the terms/labels seem now from when I was younger. Back then the idea of a painter, blacksmith, sculptor, and designer meant specific professions each with very focused talents. Now days the terms seem to have a much broader meaning, requiring a little investigation when you hear them. The labels themselves really don't matter to me at all. To me it seems art is a personal expression and "rules" or comparisons should be made with that in mind. With regards to myself I feel a lot like Nathan, a craftsman working towards being an artist, requiring me to master the craft and design. I'm certainly not qualified to actually pass any sort of judgment on anybody, but it did bring a lot of questions to my mind that seemed to lead to more questions. In the end I think I agree with you Ries, every man made object should be evaluated equally and I know first hand that trying to orchestrate a shop to work harmoniously and produce the final piece as intended is far more difficult than just doing it your self. Thank you Ries and Everyone else for your insight and comments to my questions. I've learned a lot and my questioning mind seems satisfied. Jake » reply  " The difference between a
Paula -
Saturday, January 26, 2008 - 9:00pm
" The difference between a flower and a weed is a judgement"... don't know who said that, but it makes sense... what is art? what is the artist? The means to which ideas/concepts are created.... there is lots of 'art' in the world that i personally don't like...but then, maybe i just 'don't get it'... anyway, interesting question... which came first, the chicken or the egg??? hmmmmmm » reply  Finally had time to read this!!!!
Janet Rutkowski -
Tuesday, January 29, 2008 - 5:34pm
Well I'm caught in between also. I just put in a proposal for Socrates Sculpture Park here in NYC. For me since I have basically been making "functional art" and architectural metalwork how do I convince these people that I am more then capable to construct or supervise in the construction of a large scale sculpture? » reply amen to that
Paula -
Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 1:50pm
I have the same problem... the only answer that i have is to educate the public... but i am more than willing to listen if you can come up with some alternative ideas... in my mind there really isn't any 'crossing over' from craft to art... i think they go hand in hand... let us all know what happens with your proposal.. what works, what doesn't, i'm all ears... Paula » reply Part of me thinks that you
eligius1427 -
Friday, February 1, 2008 - 8:59pm
Part of me thinks that an artist/craftsman just has get that first public sculpture and then after that your a "capable" artist/craftsman. I know that a lot of your small sculptures would make great large outdoor pieces. Interesting, durable, safe. A lot of large public works call to artists have asked for 1-3 references involving your past public works. How you get the first one without that kind of reference seems to me to be the tricky part. Maybe one just has to take the first one in the shorts and donate it to get one out there. Seems like that could get kind of expensive though depending on the size. Jake » reply ??
Paula -
Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 9:54pm
It is a problem... you would think with an art background and the experience gained by creating functional art pieces would be 'reference' enough.. 'proof is in the pudding'(or photos) sort of thing...sadly no... donating a sculptor? i understand your reasoning. i have learned that donating items which = time/sweat/talent/money does not always = recognition, more work or compensation... not trying to sound like a cynic, but if i donate again, i will research the organization first and donate ONLY on the premise that i am doing some good. I think you're definitely right in saying to "take the first one in the shorts" is probably the dues needing to be paid... after reading my own comment over... God, i hope it doesn't sound.... like...i'm p.o'ed... cuz i'm not.....just commenting on your comment.... Paula » reply  Jake, I definitely disagree
Rich Waugh -
Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 10:01pm
Jake, I definitely disagree with the idea of taking in the shorts to get your work out there. Once you do that, you'll forever be "branded" as a guy who values his work so low that he will give it away. Thus endeth the road to higher paying work. If you feel that simply have to put something on the line to get that first piece out there, then pick a real, 501(C)(3) charity organization and donate a sculpture for their corporate headquarters in exchange for a letter of donation for tax purposes. That way you can get a piece in front of the public but still establish a value for it that isn't "free." Just my $.02 worth, and probably worth every penny of it, too. (grin) Rich » reply good point
Paula -
Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 10:03pm
very well said Rich, all good points... » reply I agree completely, Rich. I
eligius1427 -
Monday, February 4, 2008 - 11:13pm
I agree completely, Rich, and I love the idea of the donation letter to establish a value. I don't believe in not getting paid for any work without a good reason. If one wants to "donate" a sculpture in order to get a piece out there he/she should definitely to some research and make sure it will be worth it and accomplish what that person intended. I do think it is important to market yourself as you want to be seen though, and this can be done many ways. I used the above strategy when I began doing metalwork. I started my business on a shoestring budget and worked at least one other job full time for the first 5-6 yrs. I bought a $550 Lincoln 120 mig welder and a $100 Makita chop saw and went to work, rolling over all of my profit back into new equipment. I obviously didn't have any money for advertising so I took a few jobs designing and building outdoor dining fences on a very busy street here in Lincoln for almost no profit. My thought was either save more money from my other job and pay for advertising or "pay" in unpaid hours and put my money where my mouth is. In the end it worked out pretty well because those fences were seen by hundreds of people every day and gave me credibility at the same time. By now I've fabricated around 8 fences within that area(the later ones for a profit) :). Except for business cards I have yet to invest in any advertising. I'm positive, however, that this plan would not have worked so well had those fences been in someones back yard and not seen by anyone. Although donating a scultpure to become "established" might be similar in principle, it is a 100% donation not just labor. I might try it with a smaller piece, but certainly nothing large. Your right Paula, your successful installations should be more than enough for a reference, so I guess the question is why our past functional art for private use isn't? Jake » reply  Jake, I think part of the
Glen Jones -
Friday, February 1, 2008 - 5:21pm
Jake, I think part of the problem is that the ones who are concerned about this are the ones who create the art. And often the ones who dont care are the ones who buy the art. Glen » reply |
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ArtMetal
And here we go! I remember a
And here we go! I remember a critique when I was in college that began with the phrase".. towing the line between art and craft..", and an issuance of varied opinions ramped off from that point. My belief as you may well guess is that an artist must know the craft to which the medium belongs. I was once told that the difference twixt art and craft is that an artist never really knows what the end result of his/her labor will be and that a craftsman does. Try telling that to a finish carpenter working on what passes for quality construction these days. In regards to an artist completing their own work I do feel that having assistance is vital to securing deadlines and prolonging one's career. The real rub- to me Jake- is that the term artist gets thrown around a bit too much. When someone refers to themselves as a craftsmen there is actually a heirarchy involved and the judgement of said skills is evaluated by peers. An artist- it seems is given such designation by his/her self or by the public. Don't get me wrong- I thought I was an artist for quite a while. It was when I looked at Rodin, Michelangelo and a host of others that I realized that I had no right to said title until I had not only mastered my craft, but design as well. And it with that statement that I say there is a lot left to learn and I am eagerly looking forward to it, but for the time being I am content to earning the label craftsmen and seeking the same of artist.
"Behind every great masterpiece there is a martyrdom"-Rodin