Welcome to ArtMetal, Herschel!

I too use TIG to join copper when I can't tolerate a color change. Even the so-called copper-colored silver solders aren't all that good a match. If you need a true color match, autologous welds are the way to go, for sure.

Rich

Dick, no matter what you do when you braze copper because of the heat the copper is going to oxidize and that is the black stuff. I use a flux that is no longer available that was used to make medical instruments. It pops off as soon as it cools. If you use flux coated rods scrape off one side of it because you do not need that much flux. I myself prefer to dip the rod in the flux and only use a small amout. The automatic fluxers are very messy and are more for production work.
What ever you do make sure you clean off all of the flux. Best thing is to quench in water as soon as you are done brazing. Also I pickle all of my work to clean the copper back to the salmon state so it can be patina. All of the glass residue must be completely removed or what I call "salty" spots will appear at the edges of the braze bead in the future.

www Metalrecipes -- heat and beat to the desired shape, repeat as necessary.
warren

Do not know why but when ever we get a copper brazing question someone mentions to TIG copper. I guess that is fine if you have a TIG welder and the electric and money to run one. TIG welders cost around $12.00 an hour to run, while O/A torch costs around a buck to run an hour when brazing.
Maybe one of these days I will get the TIG but we have to learn what we have and go from there.
Here is a head that was made form 4 pieces of 32oz copper and brazed together. The beak is 2 pieces and the head/neck were made in halves and brazed together. The extra brazing rod was removed. There was a fine line of brazing rod but if done correctly in will patina with the copper and as you can see here, impossible to detect.
Oh yeah the neck feathers were chased in after filled with pitch using an air chiesel head brazedas the final process.

www Metalrecipes -- heat and beat to the desired shape, repeat as necessary.
warren

Warren,

Beautiful work on that heron! Really outstanding.

Can you cite some facts and figures for that $12/hr to run a TIG welder and $1/hr for O/A? I'm having a rally hard time understanding that wide a divergence in costs.

My inverter TIG is a Chinese unit that cost me just over $500 and my O/A rig cost about the same. I just filled my acetylene cylinder three days ago to the tune of $113. Ouch! The TI unit draws about 10 amps when welding 20 ounce copper, so that comes to roughly 95 cents for an hours electricity and about a buck's worth of argon. Even with depreciation on the machine, I'm only at about $2/hr for TIG and the acetylene alone for the torch costs that. I should note that here in the Virgin Islands, we pay the highest electric rates in the US - over 35 cents a kilowatt hour for residential use, about three times as much as the US average.

I TIG weld copper instead of brazing because it is stronger, perfect color match and there is virtually no heat distortion as there can be with brazing. No flux fumes, either. I don't know why other use TIG, but I would guess their reasons are about the same. It's just one more tool in the arsenal.

By the way, I do braze things, notably cast iron, and I use the TIG torch as the heat source because it is cleaner and cheaper than acetylene.

Rich

Rich, a few years back somebody posted on some forum a welding type to cost comparison. I remember how much the TIG cost because at that time I was seriously looking at one. The chart might of been outdated or did not take in account the inverter units. Their are many sites out there that have charts and formulars for figuring cost of welding.

www Metalrecipes -- heat and beat to the desired shape, repeat as necessary.
warren

Thanks guys. I appreciate your responce to my question.

Wade - I did google jet fluxer and it really didn't show much. Mostly I found where I could buy the flux but not the system.

Rich - I do appreciate your opinion of the jet fluxer. I read a book written by a metal sculpture who uses one and he made it sound wonderful. You obviously don't have the same feelings.

Warren - I think your brazed bird head is absolutely beautiful. So far most of my work has been flat. I am about ready to try something like what you did. It may take a while, but I will learn.

Herchel - I appreciate your comments also.

Rich - What I would like to know is where you can buy a TIG welder, that actually works, for about $500.00? I paid about $500.00 for my MIG welder. I have tanks of different cantainers of gas in order to weld steel, aluminum, and stailess steel. That gets expensive. What I am hearing you say, is that TIG will do all of them with just 100% argon. I use the straight argon for aluminum. I use 75/25 mix for steel, and of course the O/A for brazing copper.

When I braze copper I use flux covered brazing rods and then scrape off about 95% of the flux. However, I am using all new copper. I get no residue at all.

Thanks again,
Dick

Dick,

My inverter TIG is a Chinese-made unit that I got on Ebay on a fluke deal. The unit normally sells for about $900-1000 from Longevity Inc. (http://www.longevity-inc.com/listproducts.php?catid=38). It isn't a Miller or a Lincoln, but it does a wide range of work for me remarkably well considering the cost. Yes, I use straight argon all the time. That's fine for steel, silicon bronze, stainless steel, and aluminum. If I was going to weld magnesium or some other really exotic alloys I might have to look into some helium, too. I also have a Miller Syncrowave 250 with a water-cooled torch, which is wonderful for welding aluminum, bronze and copper where you need to really pour the heat to it. The torch on the inverter tig bets pretty damn hot after an hour or so, but the water-cooled torch never gets hot. I like that!

My MIG welder is a Millermatic 175 that cost more than my inverter TIG, of course, though not nearly as much as the Syncrowave and cooler unit. I p[robably use the MIG as much as I do the TIG, since it is the go-to tool for pasting together production jigs, quick tooling and run-of-the-mill fabrication work. I'd like to get a spool un for it to do aluminum, but haven't yet had sufficient need to justify the $600 for the gun. Maybe someday.

I run 80/20 argon/CO2 in the MIG, although I could just as well be running straight CO2 (much cheaper) as I'm only doing mild steel 99% of the time. The other 1% of the time I'm welding silicon bronze and I just swap the argon bottle off the TIG. The reason I use the 80/20 mix is that from time to time I use the MIG gun for welding higher alloy steels like 4140, 5160 and 8230, and straight CO2 isn't appropriate for those. I only spend about four or five hundred bucks a year on the 80/20 so I can live with it.

When I do any torch brazing of non-ferrous stuff I just use bare rods and make up a flux dip of borax and boric acid in alcohol and water with a drop of surfactant. I've never liked the coated rods. For Sil-Fos soldering of copper I don;'t use any flux most of the time and have no problems.

When I do TIG brazing, the DIY flux mix is really handy as it doesn't leave crud all over everywhere and get crud in the TIG torch. I use it for silver soldering, too.

The best thing about the TIG welder is that it is super clean - no little welder berries all over, no smoke, and minimal heat distortion. I can use it to install a railing over a marble floor or next to a window without fear, something that would be impossible with MIG or stick.

Rich

Thanks for all of the info Rich.

My MIG welder is a Lincoln Pro MIG 140 that I picked up at Lowe's for (I think) $474.00. I got it about three years ago. The new Pro MIG 140's are selling for just above $500.00. I contacted Lincoln to ask how I could use my welder on Aluminum and they told me the product number of the roll gun for that model. What they didn't tell me was that the model is only good for the current (new) Pro MIG 140. Mine was the previous model. I bought the aluminum roll gun from Indiana Oxegen Welding supply for about $175.00. When I was trying to put it on my welding machine, nothing would work according to the instructions. I contacted Lincoln and they asked for the model number of my welder and then informed me that the roll gun would not work on mine. So I had to get the kit to change the liner. It is teflon and for aluminum only. I just got it recently, and before I try it I have some steel welding to do. The thing I don't like about it is that I have to change everything all of the time. I guess the best way to do this work is to have a welder hooked up for every job. Problem is money, and space. Even if I could justify the added expense I just don't have the room. so I will just change liners and gas when necessary.

By the way, Indiana Oxegen was really nice about my problem and returned all of my money when I sent back the roll gun. It wasn't there mistake but they were really nice about the whole thing.

I like my little Lincoln Electric welder. I built a cart for it and just roll it around from my shop to my assembly room, and have a special 30 amp plug for it in both rooms. It is a little work horse.

Maybe one day I can get a TIG and if I can figure out a way to do most all of my work with it, then I won't need all of the containers of gas and all of the stuff I use now.

Dick

Hey Rich - I wrote to you and it got lost. I don't remember everything I said, but it went something like this.

I would like to have a TIG welder except for two reasons, money and space. I am really crowded for space and right now I have a lot of equipment to work with until I can justify more.

I earned my living for the past forty years as a professional photographer, and I never seemed to stop buying equipment. It seemed like there was always something new that I felt that I "needed." Now I have retired from fulltime photography and taken up working with metal, and I see myself falling back into the same "want" mode. The thing was, every time I bought new camera equipment it paid for itself in time. When I can make my metal art pay for the tools I buy, then I will buy more.

Okay, I didn't write all of that before, just thought I would add a thought.

I have a Lincoln Electric MIG welder. I bought the aluminum roll gun from Indiana Oxegen Welding Supply and after I got it it wouldn't work on my set up. I then found that since I bought my welder three years ago, I would have to use the liner especially made for working with aluminum. They were really nice at Indiana Oxegen and gave me a full refund when I returned it. I just got the liner and haven't used it yet. I still have some steel to weld before making the change. I am not too crazy about the idea of having to do so much changing. That is another reason it would be good to have a TIG. From what I hear you say, you can do almost everything with a TIG.

Oh by the way, I spent $175.00 for the Lincoln Electric roll gun, and the liner kit cost me under $70.00.

So far I have been doing mostly flat work, but I am going to try to do some forming. I had a fellow contact me about possibly doing some work for him cutting out small items from .050 aluminum. I bought a 4X10 ft. sheet of aluminum and then the test didn't work out like he was hoping. My cost for the test covered the cost of the aluminum. Now I have this aluminum and am planning to do a sculpture with it. What technique would be the best to use for forming this? I am not sure exactly what I am going to make, so I am thinking of pounding and plannishing to do a form effect, and the other idea would be to bend it into a curved object.

Thanks,
Dick

Rich,

I have written to you twice now (about your last post) and it never comes through. It says it will be checked by someone. What am I doing wrong?

Dick

Dick,

Both your previous comments are now published, as you can see. The reason they weren't there before is that youwere not logged in, so your comments went into the "approval queue" for moderation. Unfortunately, I was under the weather last night and not online so that didn't get done until today.

Rich
ArtMetal Moderator

Okay Rich, thanks for telling me.

As you can see, both of my posts were about the same thing. It is a little disscouraging to write and then just have it dissapear!!!!

I guess I didn't know I wasn't logged in.

Another question. When I am logged in and hit reply, do I have to put a subject? Or do I just type a comment?

Sorry you were under the weather. I hope you are feeling better today.

Dick

The subject is optional, Dick. If you don't put one, the program generally just snatches the first few words of the first sentence and uses that for the subject, sometimes with unforeseen and amusing results.

Rich

I too could not afford a Tig rig so , I just bought the torch and acessories (Argo Gauge, Filler rod and Electrodes)
Cost me about $250.00 and if you already have a regulator ,then it cost less than a torch.
PS. I have watched more than one scratch Tig weld be x-rayed.
Hope this helps.
Dee
ps. The big welding supply companies where I live said they had never heard of such... They wanted the money for a Hi Freq rig.

Scratch start TIG will work, of course. The cheap imported inverter units sometimes use that system to cut costs. While it does work, it isn't nearly as convenient as a unit with high frequency, at least for the arc initiation. For some materials, you really need the high freq active while welding, but for mild steel its no problem. If you already have an arc welder and don't plan to do a lot of TIG or highly technical welds, getting a torch and shield gas supply setup is a much cheaper way to go.

For tricky work though, it is hard to beat a good TIG welder with high frequency and a foot pedal for amperage control. There are a couple of Chinese-made inverter TIGs being sold now that are pretty decent and not at all expensive. I have one that sells for under a thousand and it works great, both AC and DC, pulse control, the works. Hard to beat that.

Rich

Stephen Fitz-Gerald

I SOOO want a TIG unit,but can't afford one at present.
I have a life size torso in pieces in forged 1/8th copper plate that I'm trying to figure out how to put together. I don't want to braze it because of the discoloration at the joints and because it's not a structural method. When I was a kid working on my old mans monolithic works(60's) he had me stick welding both copper and bronze. But no one I've contacted knows where to get those rods anymore.Any of you guys know where I might find copper arc rods these days?

Stephen,

About the only place I could think of might be to contact a major industrial electrical contractor. In the old days, they used to do some stick welding of huge copper buss bars and the like. I seriously doubt they do that any more, but someone might a few old rods laying about.

TIG does not automatically mean un-affordable, however. I've noted before that there are places that sell reasonably priced inverter TIG units these days, and even if that isn't an option it means that there are more and more used transformer TIG units coming available reasonably cheaply in some areas. Keep an eye on Craigslist and similar sites.

I like my cheap inverter TIG, bu tit would be straining to weld heavy copper plate. 1/8" might be workable, but that would be the limit. Anything heavier and I'd have to go to the Syncrowave with the water-cooled torch. TIG welding copper takes a LOT of amps.

Rich

Stephen,

If you have an oxygen/acetylene torch you can get some deoxidized copper rod and weld with that. It is the same rod that you can use for TIG. I have done it up to 1/8th and takes a little time to heat up but is doable. I use a little flux on the rod every now and then when the rod will not flow properly. You might get a little pin holes but you can hammer those out. The rod does not flow really well but if grinding the weld should be okay. It is time consuming and a little tricky because easy to burn through. You have to more or less push the rod in the puddle because it acts like you have a film to go through. Also electrical wire will work but does not flow as easy. Try it and see if will work. Here is a link to a site that sells the flux for the copper rod.
http://www.tinmantech.com/html/copper_index.php

www Metalrecipes -- heat and beat to the desired shape, repeat as necessary.
warren

Stephen Fitz-Gerald

Thanks you guys...
Warren,I did try deoxidised copper wire,but for my MIG machine but could never get it to work,even preheating the weldment with the torch. I was directed for the products by my local welding supply but they couldn't tell me how to use it or set it up. I will check the links you provided.
My father built a huge milkweed pod fountain sculpture in copper and stainless in 1965 for the corporate HQ of the chemical company that invented plexiglass,(Rohm & Haas)that is still there today in Philadelphia. That was the first large work he had me working on and at age 11 I was welding the 1/8th inch copper plate with burly 1/8th inch arc rods. That stuff really flowed well...Can't believe it's unavailable today.
I just found an image of the work on some strangers photostream on flickr;
http://www.flickr.com/photos/timwilson/21918704/

i mostly do work in steel with 56% silver solder. i used a lot of flux, can the mixture your using handle the higher heat? I would love to get your recipe for it if so.