acetylene torch question

Jewelry |

Hi
I am new here on the artmetal site. I am sort of a newby to jewelry making too. Have recently been re-enthused about the whole thing again. I recently took a class at the local arts center on bracelet forming using copper. I really felt like I learned a lot in the class. But I haven't been able to pursue it at home because of an issue I'm having with my torch.
It has been stored outdoors on my covered patio for over a year. I wanted to use it of course, so I got it out and checked out the hose for damage. I then opened the tank a 1/4-1/2 turn, then tried lighting it with the flint,after turning the valve open on the torch handle. Nothing happened but a build up gas fumes. I closed the valves and took off the head of the torch and saw that there was dirt or debris of some kind in the tube, so I knocked it out best I could, hooked it all back up and tried lighting it again. I got a very small yellow flame that was going out so I opened the valve more on the torch handle and then it caught on fire. The fire was coming out of the torch where the torch tip fits into the nut. Don't know why I thought waiting a day or two would make a difference but I tried it again and the same thing has happened.
What should I do? The tank is full. I only have one gauge on it and there is a gold knob on the front of it that regulates ambient air (I think)but I am not sure how to set it. The place that sold it to me was not too helpful in explaining anything other than to tell me I shouldn't under any circumstance use it in my house. I have since found out that is not necessarily true.
So it now sits in my garage waiting for a solution so I can continue my fold forming jewelry venture. Dying to make a silver bracelet using the techniques I learned but need to anneal the metal first.
Hope someone is out there reading this and can help me.
Deborah


Daverham's picture

I'm not saying this is *the*

I'm not saying this is *the* answer, but after a year of outdoor storage, it sounds like the O-ring in your torch handle is likely dried up and leaking. Take off the torch tip and look at the black, rubber O-ring around the inside/base. I bet it is all dried, crusty and cracked. And if you don't see one at all, that's even worse. You can get them at the welding store. Very cheap but very essential.

Be careful with that rig, and be careful about storing it in your garage or anywhere indoors. Do you have a hot water heater or furnace with a pilot light? A leaky hose/tank/valve + a pilot light can be a big, big problem - as in: major house fire. In this case "be careful" means please don't do it. I'm not exaggerating in the least to tell you that I walked into my shop TONIGHT and was overpowered with the smell of propane that was leaking from a tank. Leaky fuel cylinders DO happen. I'm not some stuffy-mr-safety-guy. I break more rules than I follow, but this is fairly hi-risk stuff if you don't take certain precautions.

It sounds like this is an acetylene/air torch with no second (oxygen) tank, but that's not 100% clear... correct?

Also, Acetylene is very corrosive to common rubber so get that O-ring at a welding store, and make sure it is "fuel safe" or whatever they call it. An O-ring from the hardware store will likely fail very quickly and you'll be back where you started - if this is indeed the actual problem.

AFTER all this... a photo or two of your setup will make it very easy to help us give you additional usage/safety info on what is the exact nature of that brass valse you described. It could be fuel pressure or fuel/air mix. hard to say without seeing it. Good luck, be safe, and welcome to the forum!


Debdoessilver's picture

re: answer

Thanks Daverham. I have an all electric house no gas anywhere except my car and that acetylene tank. :)
I will check out the O ring and if it is as you think it is, I will definitely replace it with the proper part. It is pretty dry here in AZ and last year was about as dry as it could get. Not to mention the heat. I don't have the Oxy/acetylene set up, just the acetylene. I am fearful enough of the one, can't imagine dealing with both of them at once. I used to be afraid of the "pop" everytime the torch lit or when turned off. The first thing I did when I bought the torch was light it and turn it off over and over till the sound no longer made me jump. Can you see how I must have jumped when the thing caught fire! Thankfully I had it in a holder.
I will try to get a picture of the setup and post it.
Thanks again.
Deborah


warren's picture

Scary

Deborah,
I was thinking the same thing the o-ring cracked. If you bought it locally call them up first and see if the have the o-rings. Buy a couple extra. You might have to take the torch to the welding shop so they can give you the correct size.

www Metalrecipes -- heat and beat to the desired shape, repeat as necessary.
warren


Rich Waugh's picture

Deb, Welcome to

Deb,

Welcome to ArtMetal!

Okay, you seem to have an air/acetylene torch. You're in Arizona where the UV and ozone levels are higher than most other places so rubber deterioration is very likely. Another thing is the dirt - that may the result of a mud dauber wasp having built a nest in your torch head, or debris from spiders. The torch needs to be taken completely apart, cleaned properly and reassembled with new rubber seals.

The regulator knob is not an air adjustment, it is the gas pressure adjustment. The torch naturally aspirates the air it needs - the higher the gas pressure, the faster the gas flow and thus the more air it pulls in by venturi action. You should start out with the knob adjusted so that you show about 5 psi on the gauge for a medium sized torch tip and adjust it up or down until the flame characteristic is right. (Obviously, you can't do this until the torch has been cleaned and rebuilt.)

If the place you bought the torch isn't helpful, then take it to a welding supply house. Those guys should know how to help you out and you don't want just any nitwit to tear down a torch; they can be dangerous if not done properly. If you do take the torch to a shop for examination, be sure to take the whole setup - torch, hose and regulator.

You can help yourself if you look online for the manufacturer of the torch and download the proper manual for it. Then red the manual thoroughly while you have the torch in front of you so you can match the manual with reality until it is all familiar to you. You may find that the manual tells you haw to clean and maintain the torch and you won't need to take it anywhere, or you may find that you'd feel more comfortable if you had a professional do it for you. One other possible source of information may be the community college - often they have jewelry classes with instructors that are familiar with torches and could help you out.

Based on the symptoms you've described, you should not attempt to use that torch until it has been properly cleaned and checked out. Acetylene is a highly flammable and potentially explosive gas if not handled properly, or if used in malfunctioning equipment.

When you pursue a trade or craft that employs torches, it really pays to get on good terms with your local welding supply house. Most of them offer not only sales and supply, but also torch and regulator rebuilding, workshops, seminars and open houses where you can meet others with your same interests. They're a great resource in other words.

Good luck with it and let us know how it comes out. I look forward to seeing some pictures of your work after you get things sorted out and can get some work done.

Rich


marilyn's picture

I have kept an

I have kept an air/acetylene setup in my basement studio for years. The welding supply owner who sold it to me felt it was very safe. After all, houses have gas stoves, gas water heaters, gas furnaces etc.and people don't worry about them. As long as the unit is well maintained and you don't plan on tossing it into a bonfire, it's ok. I know that this message will cause a lot of messages saying how dangerous this practice is but I feel safe. I agree that your torch needs to be cleaned. There probably all sorts of debris such as spider webs and the insects that were caught by them in it.

marilyn


Daedalus's picture

Sticking my neck out here...

I will say that I keep tanks in my basement shop also.I know what I`m doing as I have been safely using them for 30+ years and had training in their safe use,transportation and storage.That being said,anyone who uses these tanks indoors or in an enclosed space should be trained in how to do a proper leak down test.It`s a simple thing and the training can be done by most welding supply houses or where welding certifications are done.It should be second nature to perform this for anyone owning the gear.Don`t know what a leak down test is?Get the training and find out.
It`s no exaggeration to say there tanks are potential bombs if not handled and stored properly.Invest the time it takes to get the training to be safe for you and your family`s sake.
Those of us who maintain them in our homes should also be aware that if your insurance carrier finds you have them
there they will most likely cancel your homeowners insurance.

For the folks who think the are OK because they have no other gas appliances in the home.Every time you flip a light switch or plug or unplug an electric item a momentary arc is formed.That arc is enough to ignite ANY flammable fumes(like gasoline fumes from that leaky mower in the garage) or gases in the right concentration.If you think you will be able to smell the fumes/gases and that will alert you to not throw a switch then remember that a lot of these flammable things are heavier than air and those electrical ignition sources are usually below head level.
An all electric house is NOT completely safe as long as there are flammables stored inside it.
If I have scared a few people,Good,you will have it on your mind and will be more apt to do the right thing and be safe.
That is the whole point of this.

In theory there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice there is.


Daverham's picture

Fuel tank storage is up to

Fuel tank storage is up to each individual's judgement. As are many things in life. I store mine indoors, but I don't recommend it to other people - especially when leaks are known/suspected.

I forgot to mention that there are torch tip cleaners (tools) you can get at the welding shop. It looks like a little set of aluminum needle files. You can stick the right sized one in the tip and make sure it's clean. I wouldn't stick just anything in there, the aluminum is softer than the copper torch and so doesn't risk wallowing out the hole.

Rich is right, the mud/crud/spiders is another likely culprit. Could be that, could be the O-ring, could be both. It only takes a tiny tiny tiny little piece of debris to disrupt or clog a torch.


Rich Waugh's picture

Daedalus makes some very

Daedalus makes some very good points about fuel gas safety.

You must check your setup for leaks every time you assemble it and periodically thereafter as things can change with temperature, humidity, movement, etc. Learn how to do it properly and do it religiously.

As he noted, electric contacts can create sufficient spark to ignite fuel/air mixes in the right proportion. One VERY important thing to know is that acetylene will ignite in almost any concentration from 1% to 99%.

I too, store acetylene indoors. Safely. I will NOT store propane indoors, however. It is heavier than air and can pool in low areas until sufficient concentration is reach to allow ignition. Propane is stored outdoors and piped in through black iron pipe as per building codes.

If you should have a fire in your home, the fire marshal/inspector will look for the cause. They have two favorites - faulty wiring and gas leaks. If a fuel gas cylinder is discovered in the ruins of the fire, guess which one they'll pick? Three will get you five that your homeowner's insurance carrier will determine that the presence of that cylinder constitutes negligence on your part and deny your claim. Something to keep in mind, and weigh as one factor in your decision as to whether or not you store it inside. It's a good idea to read your insurance policy carefully. I don't recommend that you ask your insurance agent since that will likely result in, at a minimum, a note in your file that you asked about doing something they consider unsafe. Worse, they could simply cancel your coverage based on that question.

Life is an uncertain and risky proposition at its best. Know what your risks are and act accordingly. Life without risk is pretty bland, but all risk and no reward makes Johnny a dead boy. :-)

Rich


Bigfoot's picture

my 2 cents

Personally, I agree with Mr. Waugh about fuel gasses indoors. I am no expert by any means of acteylyne saftey, but I know a bit about propane saftey (both are flamable gasses, so I may have some decent comments). I always spray my propane hose and all of the connectors with soapy water to check for leaks when I am using it (the one time I didn't check for leaks and all the valves for dirt and corrosion I nearly blew my self up beacause of a single grain of sand in the female connector). If the soapy water bubbles when gas is flowing you have a leak. Also I would avoid having things that can go bang and void your insurance in the basement. I keep my propane tanks outside under a tarp with a special plug that screw into the female section of the valve so it stays clean. I don't know if that helps you much, but always be safe. Burning hair or flesh are not aromas you want around (especially inside).


visitor's picture

Gas leaks

Nothing wrong extra insurance , get Flash back arrestors for your oxy/propane/ace bottles.


marilyn's picture

I decided against propane

I decided against propane for the very reason that you mention. My studio is in the basement (walkout door) and I don't want gas pooling. I also don't use oxygen.

marilyn


visitor's picture

my torch problem is resolved

I want to thank all of you for your responses. I took every thing to heart and used caution and did not try to light the torch again. I want to let you know that the torch is now working like new. I had finally found the literature that came with the torch and sat down Saturday afternoon and read it thoroughly. Then I took the torch apart and using a fluffy soft pipe cleaner proceeded to clean out the torch tip and any other hole I saw. I removed a fair amt. of debris. I then carefully reassembled the torch handle and made sure all the nuts were wrench tight that were supposed to be according to the manual. I located a welding shop today and drove there with my tank. After hearing what I had to say the guy wanted to light the torch and see what happens. Lo and behold...perfect flame! No fire erupting from the lock screw. He stood there with the flint lighter striking all around the connections on the handle and no leaks! I'm not so sure he was exercising good sense and told him so. He looked at the O ring and said he thinks the dirt and what not, was causing the problem. He answered questions I had concerning the regulator and he gave me a quick review of the regulator valve and now I think I'm set to go. I lit it myself after getting home and it worked fine.
Again, thanks to all of you. I will take some pics of my bracelets and post them. Bought a new camera last night so I'm dying to try it out.
Happy metalworking to you all.
Deborah T


Rich Waugh's picture

Thanks for the follow-up

Thanks for the follow-up post, Deb! So many times someone asks a question here and I (and others) take the time to try to answer it thoroughly and carefully only to see it languish out there with no feedback on whether or not it was a help.

I'm really glad we could help you out and I'm looking forward to seeing some pictures of your work.

Rich


Daverham's picture

^ Agreed! Nice to see the

^ Agreed! Nice to see the follow up, and I'm really looking forward to some pics of your work.


Brazing1972's picture

Flint ignitor

OMG! I would not go to this guy again if he was striking the ignitor around the torch joints to check for leaks! I like the dawm dish soap approach myself. I use it when I get tank refills as I leave the regulators at home and bring my filled cylinders home. Good thing too, one time I reassembled my torch I did not tighten my oxygen regulator correctly and I took it all apart and reassembled. Was perfect the second time.

www.jtbmetaldesigns.com