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Commercial Patina Products for Copper

copperjoe - Saturday, January 24, 2009 - 2:37pm
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Hi All,

I would like to start a discussion on Commercial Patina Products for Copper. I know that there have been a lot of post on this subject but I would like to have everyone's opinions and experiences with certain products. What product works best for you? There are so many products on the market now that I get very confused about which one I should order. There are also dyes and not ever seeing these in person is really hard to figure out what they look like. Are dyes better than traditional patinas? What is the best way to apply them? Hot or cold patina, cold or hot copper? What is the best way to clean your copper before adding the patina? Is one Pickle better than the other? What is the best clear coat to put on your project to keep the patina from flaking off?

The way your product is finished can make or break it so that is why this is such a very important subject. I have made some flowers that looked great but the final patina or just the oxidation makes it look very bad. Then you have to spend hours on re-doing the whole thing. I know that the weather has a great effect on the patina process and I know that every piece will be different. That is what makes this whole process so great and also so challenging. There may not be a right or wrong answer because what works for one person may not work for another. I thought that if we could combine all our trials and errors in one place then our products may come out better and we may not have to spend as many hours on "painting" the project. We could devote more of our time to creating the next piece.

Thanks in advance for anyone participating in this discussion!!


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warren's picture

Wide Subject

warren - Saturday, January 24, 2009 - 3:29pm

Joe,
Wow this is a very wide subject. There are so many possibilities of what you want to achieve. From the bright almost painted look of the dyes to the chemicals that give you a deep look. See the image of my chemical collection. It never ends. Best place to start is one of the kits from
http://www.sculptnouveau.com/
Their products are pretty easy to use and the amount you get in the kit you can play for a long time. Yeah I know you do not want to play and looking for a simple answer. Their are also many household products that you can use to give certain colors. Ammonia and salt will give some blue, too much salt and it turns green, Miracle grow gives some green and on and on. There are some books out there for some of the formulas. Then like I have been experimenting with is some of the chemical formulas from
http://www.sciencecompany.com/patinas/patinaformulas.htm
One thing about their formulas is that it makes large batches and you need to have a scale to break down in smaller volumes.

Now to top off the patinas the best and the very very best that I have found is the lacquers from
http://www.finish1.com/
For outside work the 11565 is excellent stuff and long lasting. Trouble is you have to buy in gallons. Then they have the 2105 for interior work and this is also a great product. For spray cans they sell at McMasterCarr.

Anyhow this should get you going a little.chemicalschemicals

www Metalrecipes -- heat and beat to the desired shape, repeat as necessary.
warren


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Paula's picture

Warren, Have you ever tried

Paula - Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 10:20am

Warren, Have you ever tried protectaclear by everbrite? If so, how did it work for you, what's your opinion?
http://www.everbrite.net/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=5
Paula
Guthrie, MN


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warren's picture

Nope

warren - Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 12:01pm

Paula, sorry but I have never tried protectaclear. It sounds like a nice product. Looking at some of the work the artist that use it, it seems to hold the heat patinas. One thing that I am curious about it is that you have to use the cleaner first, will this destroy patinas made by chemicals? Most of their sell pitch is that it keeps the copper shiny like new. I have had some bad experiences with various products. One of my old time favorites was Krylon Crystal Clear Acrylic. For the $5 a spray can you could not go wrong to use for interior. They changed the formula (some EPA thing) and now it will wash out patinas. No more use of that product.

www Metalrecipes -- heat and beat to the desired shape, repeat as necessary.
warren


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copperjoe's picture

ProtectaClear

copperjoe - Monday, January 26, 2009 - 7:07am

Hi Paula,

I have been using ProtectaClear for about a year now, I have a link to them listed on my website. (www.carolinacoppercreations.com)It is a great product and the cleaning process that you go through is basically just baking soda and water to neutralize the acids then I wipe with de-natured alcohol. I heat my piece then spray on. It really brings the richness of the colors out. I will post a picture later of a flame painted lily flower that I sprayed with ProtectaClear.

Thanks,
Copperjoe

Can't never could do Nothing!


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Paula's picture

Warren, i appreciate your

Paula - Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - 6:20pm

Warren, i appreciate your honesty. I've been using it in hope that it will stand up to Northern Minnesota climate. I put some on a scrap piece and have it hanging outside just to see if it can handle the weather. Haven't been using it but a few months, so, was wondering. Thanks copperjoe.
Paula
Guthrie, MN


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copperjoe's picture

Thanks Warren, I ordered

copperjoe - Monday, January 26, 2009 - 9:50am

Thanks Warren,

I ordered the patina kit from sculptnouveau. That should give me a good start. Thank you for your suggestions. I will let you know how it worked for me.
Thanks,
Copperjoe

Can't never could do Nothing!


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warren's picture

Enjoy

warren - Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - 10:19am

Joe,
I think you will really enjoy the kits. They have so much variety in such a great price.
Just curious are most of the things that you do the heat patina and then use the plasitcoat everbrite from virgin copper........not been through a pickle? When you get your kit it will probably have some liver of sulphur. If you could use a little on some copper and let me know how the plasticoat reacts to it.
Way to test is take two pieces of copper treated the same way (note for LOS to work the copper needs to be pickled) on one spray with everbrite. After dried take the other piece and just wet with water and see if both have the same tone. Thanks

www Metalrecipes -- heat and beat to the desired shape, repeat as necessary.
warren


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copperjoe's picture

Warren, Some of my pieces

copperjoe - Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - 11:48am

Warren,

Some of my pieces have been pickled, some have patina added after the pickle and others I do not pickle at all. I use ProtectaClear on all of my fountains and most of them have the green patina. Some pieces you can not even tell that a clearcoat has been applied to it and others come out with a shine, don't know why that is. I have been very pleased with the product overall though. Last night I put some in my airbrush and sprayed my smaller table top fountains and it turned out great.

Do I need to pickle virgin copper if I am going to keep the shine? I thought that you only use the pickle after you solder/braze to remove the black from the piece. I always dip my piece in baking soda and water then rinse with clean H2O then wipe with de-natured alcohol then heat the piece with a heat gun before applying the ProtectaClear.

I will do the LOS test when I get the kit, supposed to be here Friday. The thing that I like about the ProtectaClear is that it dries very fast and there is hardly no smell after about an hour. Usually you can get a good coating with just one coat.I too have tried the Krylon clear and it seems that the smell never goes away.

I will take some photos and post with the LOS test.

Thanks,
Copperjoe

Can't never could do Nothing!


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marilyn's picture

Pickling removes the borax

marilyn - Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - 2:27pm

Pickling removes the borax "glass" that is formed from flux during soldering. If it is not removed, it does strange and unwanted things from the mosture in the air.

marilyn


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copperjoe's picture

Warren, Some of my pieces

copperjoe - Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - 11:50am

Warren,

Some of my pieces have been pickled, some have patina added after the pickle and others I do not pickle at all. I use ProtectaClear on all of my fountains and most of them have the green patina. Some pieces you can not even tell that a clearcoat has been applied to it and others come out with a shine, don't know why that is. I have been very pleased with the product overall though. Last night I put some in my airbrush and sprayed my smaller table top fountains and it turned out great.

Do I need to pickle virgin copper if I am going to keep the shine? I thought that you only use the pickle after you solder/braze to remove the black from the piece. I always dip my piece in baking soda and water then rinse with clean H2O then wipe with de-natured alcohol then heat the piece with a heat gun before applying the ProtectaClear.

I will do the LOS test when I get the kit, supposed to be here Friday. The thing that I like about the ProtectaClear is that it dries very fast and there is hardly no smell after about an hour. Usually you can get a good coating with just one coat.I too have tried the Krylon clear and it seems that the smell never goes away.

I will take some photos and post with the LOS test.

Thanks,
Copperjoe

Can't never could do Nothing!


» reply
warren's picture

Baking Soda

warren - Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 12:15am

Joe, no with the shiny virgin copper and if going to heat patina do not pickle. Yes the pickle is to remove the oxidation from heat. I am not sure what the baking soda is doing, I use it to neutralize my pickle but only spills and never on my work. Usually the virgin copper has a slight oxidation and like a dry oil because the water beads up on it.

www Metalrecipes -- heat and beat to the desired shape, repeat as necessary.
warren


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copperjoe's picture

Warren, The baking soda

copperjoe - Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 6:41am

Warren,
The baking soda neutralizes any acids that are on the copper from polishing compounds and such. All of the acids must be neutralized before using the ProtectaClear.

Thanks,
Copperjoe

Can't never could do Nothing!


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