I agree with you chuck, to a degree. For me, I too would like constructive criticism if it is deserved/needed. I value everyones opinion here and believe that, for me, your comments, both complementary and critical, will only make me a better metal worker/artist. I think it is important however, to consider the person in question very carefully before anyone unleashes harsh constructive criticism towards their work. I have been working with metal for many years and can take/need critical reviews of my work to hone my skills further, however, had my work been beaten down in it's beginning stages instead of encouraged, i might have become frustrated and discouraged. With this new year, let us focus on making each and everyone of us a better artist in ways that are appropriate and needed by the artist individually, whether that be encouragement or constructive criticism.

Happy new year to all of you

Jake Balcom
Mettle Design
Lincoln, NE

You guys both have good points. I do agree that we too often tend to repress critical comments and only post favorable remarks about peoples' work, and thisis not necessarily a good thing. It is too easy to say only nice things here about a flawed piece and then the artist puts it before the public, only to get slammed with negative responses. That can certainly be discouraging to a newer artist, as Jake notes.

So where do we set the boundaries? How bad does a piece have to be before we say the Emporer has no clothes? Or do we hold our comments for fear of destroying the enthusiasm of a new talent who has missed the mark this time? It's a tough call, made tougher by the fact that the medium we're communicating through is very two-dimensional and can all too easily foster misunderstandings or fail to convey enough information.

When the more experienced/successful members here are asked their opinions about a piece from an obvious beginner, I think most of them will err on the side of discretion and encouragement, rather than delivering the same sort of criticism they would if the work was presented by Rodin or Mazzucotelli. Much easier to criticize those guys' work since they're dead - we generally like to keep the live ones alive though, not depress them to the point of suicide with our criticism. (grin)

I, for one, would prefer that my peers give me their honest opinions of my output. I can grow and learn from that, where flattery only buffs my ego but does nothing for my growth as an artist/craftsman. Be gentle though, I'm a very sensitive guy! :-)

I guess that since we cannot read minds, it is up to the person seeking the opinion to state his/her desire for honesty and forthrightness in the opinions expressed by others. Without that, how are we to know what is wanted? In the absence of such a request, I will probably continue to either comment favorably if I feel that way about the work, or hold my unfavorable comments. I certainly don't want to discourage anyone or hurt anyone's feelings unnecessarily.

Chuck, of course, has just declared open season on himself and his work. I am going to try to restrain myself from taking advantage of that opening and using it as an opportunity to callously vent all my pent-up frustrations. (grin)

This is a good topic that merits serious consideration and an attempt to formulate what we collectively feel is an appropriate approach to constructive criticism. Thanks for bringing this up, Chuck!

I look forward to seeing what others think about this issue. Let's hear your thoughts, folks.

Hi Chuck,
I think your idea sucks! Just kidding. I actually do think it is better to error toward a more diplomatic approach though.I think that a well thought out criticism by a learned artist could be of great merit. The problem that I fear is that the criticism will seldom be of that caliber along with different perceptions depending on the receiver's mindset.People often take to heart what is said in ways that were never meant. Perhaps if the artist presented his work with a list of areas that he was suspicious of concerning composition, color, finish etc.; a constructive criticism could be obtained without too many tears falling.
The variety of skills that we have in our family of artists makes unstructured criticism a potential liability to the health of our community as well as our fragile egos.
I believe that your suggestion could be used as a starting point in creating a format for evaluation IF the artist requests such.
Thanks, Chuck, for your candid suggestion.
Frank

Chuck,

I too have been guilty of holding back an opinion or two of my own for the sake of considering someone else's feelings, and also for the fact that they could probably careless of what I think anyway.

It is after all an opinion. I've come to learn after displaying my work before the public, and submitting to competitions that the criticism is coming from an observer that has a unique taste and style, and knows what is appealing to him/her.

Although, this opinion could ultimately help in my Artistic growth this criticism is not the ultimate truth. It is truly a matter of taste.

True growth comes from experience. The more you do the better you get. Each Master was once a disaster! That Master became a Master by experience...focused attention and love for creation. In the end all that really matters is that you truly love the pieces you create even if the rest of the world doesn't.

Each piece is a VERY personal and intimate experience from the way the user holds his/her tools to the manipulation of the metal to the final rendering. It is an experience dear to only the Artist, and in that moment that the Artist only can relate to and not the outside opinion of the rest of the world.

If it's growth your after then focus your attention on what it is you truly want out of your work and practice everyday that you can.

Leonardo Da Vinci once said that if you want to be the best you must become better than your Master, and this comes with your experiences and experiments.

As for comments that I give I do my best to stay on the more positive side, and if I don't really like something, or feel it could be better I would rather not say only for the fact that I'm not the one creating the piece...someone else is, and they have their own unique feel to what they create.

I have often seen pieces that I thought were absolutely horrible only to find out that the rest of the community thought were brilliant!

What does that say about me and my taste?? Or is it just that...my personal taste.

Cheers,

Jamie Santellano

Everyone has great points here. Constructive criticism is good for anyone. I want to stress the word constructive. No one, in my estimation should ever be torn down or discouraged. A person never knows if they are cut out for something if they aren't given the opportunity to try....for those of us who have worked at this for a while.....CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is a learning tool, how one perceives it is their decision. (have to admit, my pride usually gets in the way of this) Guess really the only thing i have to add is, if you don't want to hear the answer, don't ask the question....Frank demonstrated just that.....in a sucky kind of way ;) That was hilarious Frank....
Paula
Guthrie, MN

Everyone has made great points on this subject. I, for one, would welcome constructive comments. It helps me to look at my work from outside myself. Maybe, when we upload an image, we should ask for suggestions to improve the piece. We may not change the work but it does open up the discussion. Thanks for bringing this up. Lin

Chuck,
Look buddy, there is something disgusting about you blogg,it is true ! and agree with you, LOL,(not the disgusting part). Seriously now, this is another meaningfull topic that well addressed as is being already,should yield benefits for the Artmetal family. In my opinion, all comments on this touchy subject may be valid depending on the viewer`s optics. Something becomes obvious: everybody can handle a kind comment on his or her work, but unless requested, not everyone appreciates hard criticism. Now, once someone requests criticism, he should be ready to face even harsh ones, that`s the risk. Personally, I don`t mind the hard but educated critics. Nevertheless, we must bear in mind and respect that other folks might feel different in this regard.As Rich says, we don`t do any good either praising someone`s work and when he goes to a gallery with high expectations,gets slammed and frustrated. One thing to remember is that art is not different to other professions, and perhaps worse when it comes to acceptance, growth, etc, because it`s so darn subjective. Most of us will agree on that key word: constructiveness in mind. Ironically though the hardest comments or even actions that somebody may have commited "against" our work, later on we realize that resulted in growth and betterment. Classifying a comment as good or bad is so subjective, and could be more a matter of convinience at the time. The boundery line becomes very thin, and a well intended comment may be mistakenly taken. So probably what we say won`t be as important as how we say it. In all, I will always be for improved interaction among members. Metal art work showing alone, seems rather shallow, or incomplete if it does not serve the purpose as an efective tool to comunicate. As art is expression, and regardless of style of message, there`s nothing worse than speaking to oneself... Nelson.

After thinking about this all night and reading everyones comments, the ultimate hurdle to effective constructive criticism is conveying the design goals and limits of the project set forth by you or the client. There are many times where I will finish a project and someone will say they'd rather see a waxed finish over powder coating, and so would I, but the client couldn't afford it so we went with powder coating. As a designer, fabricator, and businessman i would have excelled, as an artisan piece amongst peers maybe not. Without conveying what we are trying to achieve or the limits imposed on the project, effective criticism will be difficult. Also, healthy criticism will also require more than hit and run comments. We will need to let the artist respond and explain him/herself and then respond again to those explanations, otherwise we will not grow as artists, fabricators, businessmen/women, or just plain decent human beings. The artist then needs to explain the project, the limitations, the concept, etc in the first post to give the viewer info behind the creation so we can interpret and understand the piece more thoroughly. If the project was an engineering problem over an artistic project, saying it doesn't look very good doesn't really apply, so it's important to know what and why we are looking at something.

I love this topic Chuck

Jake Balcom
Mettle Design
Lincoln, NE

This is a topic I believe we all want to pursue in form or another.
I want the criticism as well as the Kudos.

I agree with all of you I don’t want to take it on the chin if someone hates my work. I believe it can be done tastefully and within the confines of good manners. After Reading the comments from you all the underlying theme is “Constructive Criticism”!

I for one would like to see us write something possibly on the private side of the site.
I’m pretty sure there is a way to contact the person posting their work?
Maybe we could all improve if in a Constructive, tactful well thought criticism came rather than the unknowing.

I also see the point about professionalism from a Business perspective and a pure Artistic perspective. Jake makes a great point about what a commission will consist of purely by what people want.
Yes, many times it is based upon Cost!

I just want all of you to know that, I want this to be another option by all of us.

Yes, I am guilty of seeing someone’s work and not saying anything in fear of offending them. Consequently the person who posted their stuff is in the dark.

I would like it if we could see how many times the work was viewed by someone? Hey, food for thought!

Thanks for everyone’s input over the last year, for me personally it has helped me a lot.

Sick as a dog going to bed……………

Chuck

YIPPEE!!!!

I have actually stopped posting due to the staid nature of the blogs. I was beginning to think it was a cultural gap I couldnt bridge. Criticism is NOT a bad thing. Negative reactions to it are. Someone giving an honest appraisal of your work honours you in taking the time to consider and give a forthright opinion.

Endless warm, fuzzy cuddles will not make any of us better artists, or for that matter, better people. I agree that "I dont like it" is a pointless response to a piece of art, but "It could be improved by...." is invaluable. The artist does not HAVE to change their work or even accept the comment as valid but they should be grateful that the critic took the time to express their opinion and offer a different point of view. If we all just agree with each other all of the time then there is no point in conversing in the first place.

On a slightly different track, I think every artist should at some point sit with their art in a public place (gallery, show, market etc) and expose themselves to public criticism and praise. You will hear comments that make you angry and praise that will make you blush. You quickly develop a thick skin and learn what other people like and dislike about their work.

Thank you Chuck for your posting. It is a breath of fresh air......and sorry if the above seems like a bit of a rant.

Peter

Very good conversation here. I've been curious about this and as a newbie feel relieved to have this conversation opend up, and to see ya'll being passonate about this very important 'tool' of growth.

Ever herd of 'The falicy of intent' - its the idea that you can create a piece with the most crystaline focus as to the precise message your sending out to the vewier, just to have the viewer precieve in that piece things you never thought of. Its a shame and a blessing at the same time.

I personally thrive on criticism. In college we had peer reviews and all us students sat around and exposed our fragile selfs through our projects to positive and negative comments by our peers. It could get ugly! The reason it worked was our professor acted as a mediator halting unproductive talk and often turning the tables on someone whos critique of anothers work applyed to theirs just as well. these were face to face reviews and theres a lot of content in tone and expression.

I immagine we're generaly capable here of conduction ourself here , but, Do we need a mediator?

Should we limit constructive critisim to techniques and exclude ideals and artistic merit?

KevinW

Chuck I understand perfectly the point you want to make, and the points other people made too. Your`s is an inquiry for input, for communication, not indiference. Lack of input could be taken either way: people couldn`t care less or don`t wish to state an unfavorable comment to a particular post. Seemingly, most are for constructive criticism, which means someone may not necessarily view the work as perfect as we`d like to, and this in turn translates into improvement for us as artists, who ask for input.In this regard, as Jake stated, it`s helpful to focus where the criticism is asked. Here as when we post a picture of our work, we`re expressing ourselves using words in one case and images in the other. Imagen having somebody in front and addressing him, and not receiving and answer. Surely, someone is deaf, he felt insulted and won`t answer, or his ego says f... you, or didn`t understand what you said and is fraid of replying...God knows.That`s why comunication is so important here too. At this point, I remember what someone called "The 3C`s Triangle" that supports any relationship: Compatibility, Commitment, and Comunication. Posting artwok and not expect a reaction be it positive or negative seems unrealistic, and whether we want it or not, from the moment we see an art piece, we asses space, texture,colors, shapes, meaning, etc,within the work and usually come up with a sense of agreement or not. To me that`s some sort of judgement, so it`s very difficult to scape this natural human reaction to art. No reaction, no input from viewers?? must be discretion or failure to express himself efectively . Here that concept Kevin brought up: "falacy of intent", is just un undeniable fact, a risk of doing art work. Regarding cultural gaps, well that too may be an obstacle to overcome, not everyone has high academic level, but ironically, I`ve met some people(very few), who having low academic level, have a higher quality as a person,higher human quality than many P.H. D`s,lawyers,etc. who have even traveled, and supposedly broaden their horizonts. And why might those culturally speaking humble folks be considered of higher quality as people(definetely not include myself!), I think Janet and others hit the nail on the sweet spot: EGO, too many of us, too often are driven by this powerful state of mind. There are also cultural differences that make viewing artwork, and other issues in a variety of ways, sometimes very emotional ways are not appropiate either (here I want to include myself!), and that must be controled too. The views stated here, in my believe are as varied as honest as they could be. We may desagree or not,but we are communicating and sharing in a way as or more important, than when we merely post or view an image. This blog in my opinion is great because it`s an oportunity for us to grow, and to honor this blog, please, don`t be afraid to tell me off in an educated maner. Best wishes to all in 2009! nelson.

To everyone,
I think all of us have very good points on this subject.
Each is varried but also valid.
Warren I read your perspective earlier at work. I think you bring out some very good points on this subject.
"EGO".....
You know your right, sure I love the positve strokes and yes, I am new to the Art world as an Artist.
In addition, I have more insecurities than I care to mention.
But this was not my intent for this Blog.
After reading your post though I realized how much you had a terrific point!
Hear me out though, we all come from different backgrounds and demographics. Some do this professionally and others as a hobbie.
I love my new found Hobbie, although I am a machinist. (20 plus years now)
I see everything all day in Black and White.
Whatever I make is to Print, Precise and matches everything that is required for the peice I am making (Currently Jet Engine Gearboxes).

As I express myself Artisticly and post images of them I grow from BOTH
Praise as well as Criticism.

My intent for this blog was to cut away from the "COOL DUDE"
and add some more substance to our comments both Good and Bad.

Finally, and maybe most important to me is that I RESPECT all of you and your opinions.
This is why I post to get feedback from people who do this like myself.
Who is better to give advise? Poeple like you and I who communicate with on another to share in the experience of their Craft.

I hope I have not offended anyone.
I appreciate I have somewhere to go to express myself with all of you.

Chuck

A verse I always live by: Feedback is the Breakfast of Champions!

Dustin "Woody" Woodford

"They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
-General John Sedgwick (Killed by a Confederate sharp-shooter at the Battle of Spotsylvania Court House)

"The only difference between a flower and a weed is a judgement." ~Dyer~
Paula
Guthrie, MN

First off, let be make one thing abundantly clear - I am a metal whore. I do this for money. Yes, I enjoy the creative aspect, and I really like it when I can have sole control of the work, but in the final analysis I am doing this to pay the bills and keep on surviving. That means I have to make a number of compromises with my personal aesthetics and the client's idea of what is good. It also means I have to come in within a certain budget most times, and that can limit my freedom considerably. Still, I do draw the line at sending out work that is, in my opinion, pure crap. I can afford to pass up those jobs far better than I can afford to get a reputation for doing crappy work.

When/if I post a picture of a piece I've done, it is for the entertainment of the audience and for the purpose of getting feedback. Whether negative or positive or in between, feedback gives me information that I cannot get from myself. Try as I might to see a piece from another perspective, in the end it is my own eyes I'm seeing it with and my own brain, history, attitudes that I interpret it with. I NEED the response from others in order to see hwere my thinking parallels that of others and where it diverges, generally speaking. For that reason, I like responses that give particulars about design, execution, style, color, etc. And suggestions for alternative choices to those I have made. This is where I learn and grow.

When we try to grow all on our own, we become ingrown, rather than grown up. Man is a social animal and needs other people in order to develop. I believe that our art is part of our growing and it, too, needs input from outside. Perhaps those who create purely for themselves and desire no outside influence can carry on without input, but those people would never post a picture of a work, would they? The very act of posting a work in a public forum acknowledges the viewer as important to the validity of the piece. Therefore, one cannot post a piece and then cavil about the responses it gets. You asked for it, essentially.

This most assuredly does not mean that we should jump all over a piece and criticize it harshly and without any suggestions for improvements. We should give our opinions and suggestions in an adult, constructive manner with due regard for the shallowness of the medium in which we're communicating. If we know that the creator of the piece is new to the field, or is a hobbyist creating for the enjoyment of it rather than for sale, then we might temper our remarks even more, as feelings will probably be on the line. We can still be honest, just a bit more diplomatic than we might be when giving me feedback on a piece I just did as a commission - I've already been paid for the work so I'm really looking for suggestions that might improve the way I do the next commission.

As others have noted, this is a really valuable thread you've started, Chuck. As a reward, your membership in ArtMetal is free for the next year. (grin)