Inside raising a ball

Chaz - Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 4:11pm

Hey folks,
I've been a member for awhile but just a "reader". I have now come across a project that I could use a little help and/or guidence on. I need to make a couple different sized hollow copper balls. 3" and 14".
I have a couple different swage blocks I use for my blacksmith work so I have several different "dishs" to work it in. I also just forged what I hope will be a good raising hammer (curved, single sided and ground close to what Warren reccomends on his site except I have a little more radius to the face side to side). And 18 ga. copper. Now I am looking for a little guidence. :) Or even other suggestions on tools to use!
Is there a tutorial on our site here or on the net that I can get some pointers from?? I would even like any pointers you may offer but I don't want to use up people's time if they are busy.
I do have the book Moving Metal which has been a lot of help but still looking for a bit more or some tips. Again, the tools I have may not be what I need but I just don't know. I can build what I need.
Thanx for your time!!
Chaz

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copper balls

silvermon - Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 10:26pm

With 18g copper I think you will want to raise the two halves instead of sinking. Sinking could thin 18g a little too much. Of course this depends on the final application. If you were to sink against wood depressions you may end up around 22g, and 24g in small areas. With raising you can control the thickness much better, depending on how much experience you have. If you haven't done much raising thus far, and we know you are using a steel hammer, I might suggest making a hardwood stake to raise against; I hear they are wonderful. I learned to raise steel to steel, and have always done so, but errors do occur. You may be able to search the web and buy your 3'' ball ready made. The 14'' I'm not so sure. Good luck, Dan

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Ok, this is a new way to

Chaz - Friday, January 22, 2010 - 12:11pm

Ok, this is a new way to post replies than I have experienced on other sites, but here goes...

My bad, I should have said I was doing two halves. Sorry. I will then TIG them together.
The final application(s) is the small one is a butterfly head and the large one will be a loose rendition of the earth. A "bought-en" ball would be too heavy. And I don't really want it perfectly symetrical. More "organic" if you will.
Raising kind of scares me a bit but I will give it a try.

Ok, now I guess I need to answer the other post under that post.......I guess. Like I said, this is a little different (I think) then say Metal Meet or the other sites I'm on. :) And I am much better at swinging a hammer then tappin keys. :) I guess I'll find out here shortly. :)

Thanx Dan, I appreciate it!!!
Chaz

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Chaz, Forget the swage block

Rich Waugh - Friday, January 22, 2010 - 12:22am

Chaz,

Forget the swage block - you'll be sinking, rather than raising, and thus thinning the metal. You need a compressive (upsetting) method, which is raising all the way. Here's the reason, as I figure it:

If you want a 3" diameter hemisphere achieved by sinking, you start with a 3" diameter disc and stretch the hemisphere out of it. The 3" disc has an area of about 7 square inches and is .040" thick. That means you have a volume of roughly one quarter of a cubic inch of copper (1.5 x 1.5 x 3.14 x.04 = 0.283). The surface area of a 3" diameter hemisphere is double the area of the disc so the resulting thickness will be half of what you started with, or .020 inches. That's about 23 gauge - pretty thin for a 3" sphere and way thin for a 14" sphere.

With raising, however, you would start with a disc about 4-1/2" diameter (0.636 cubic inches volume of copper). That's more than double the volume of the 3" disc so you would end up with a hemisphere slightly thicker than 18 gauge.

To get a really good understanding of the raising process I recommend you get a copy of Rupert Feingold's book "Silversmithing" and study it. He describes it better than I can and has plenty of excellent illustrations.

Rich

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Hi again

warren - Friday, January 22, 2010 - 1:00pm

Chaz,
From what I seen of your work you should have no problem raising. In my site is a simple tutorial that will help you get started. You need to make or buy a stake with a rounded end so that you bowl will be rounded. Just remember that you are using the stake to support the metal and not hit the metal against with the hammer. That part comes when you are plannishing. Post a pic of your hammer and I could let you know how good it will work.

www Metalrecipes -- heat and beat to the desired shape, repeat as necessary.
warren

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Hey Warren, I guess you

Chaz - Friday, January 22, 2010 - 1:14pm

Hey Warren,
I guess you posted while I was hunting and pecking out my last letter. :)
Great site by the way!! :) I'll see if I can find that tutorial you mentioned. Hopefully it will have a pic of the stake to the point where I can create one. I'll have to see if you use wood or steel. Like I mentioned, my Uncle can maybe hook me up with wood but I have a great broken city transit bus spring that is just dieing to be useful again. :) :) :) They are tapered, thick and massive! :)

I don't see how to post pix on here but I'll look around. I may just put it on snapfish or photobucket if that is ok. But I'll see what I can do on here first. (please don't expect a "work of art"! :) LOL)

Thanx for your site, your help and kind words!!!
Chaz

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Ok, now to answer your post

Chaz - Friday, January 22, 2010 - 1:00pm

Ok, now to answer your post Rich.... (I think this is how it's done):)

Thanx for ALL the info!!! You say someone else can describe it better, but I followed you just fine. There's a lot to be said for that knowing me!! :) :) :)

As far as the swage, I think you are right about sinking but if you do it specifically where you get "tucks" you are essentially shrinking the hemi and then stretching some in the middle. Correct????? At least that is my impression from what I learned from Metal Meeters as well as in the book Moving Metal. But you are right, there has to be a bit of stretching going on.
I did do a couple hemi's yesterday trying it and they came out ok. At least for the small ball. I will try the large one a little later and see if I can raise it on a stake altho I don't have one for that. Any pix somewhere on what it needs to look like???
Dan mentioned a wood stake and steel hammer, since I have one. And, altho I'm not much with wood I do have a couple rubber, rawhide and hard plastic hammers if they would be better. I also have an Uncle who said he could carve me out a dish in a stump I could use to work in. So I got some options, I just have to figure out what I can use the best. Your opinion?
OH! And a day or two before I posted, I was using a planishing hammer (Basically a ballbearing welded on the end of a mild steel bar with hammer handle) with the swage block and some 16 oz. flashing copper trying to get my ball. Now THAT stretched a bunch. But I did 3 with varying degrees of success and only had one with a very small rip. But boy did it get thin. :) I couldn't get it down to a 3" ball. I scrapped that material because altho I am pretty good at welding, I have found it pretty tough to weld tissue paper. :) :) LOL

I did start out with about a 4.5" disc of the 18ga. and ended up with the circumference of the hemi just a little over that. So I don't think it stretched too much.

I TOTALLY appreciate ALL the help folks!!! Thank you!!
And if you or anyone else has any ideas and the time to write, PLEEEEEEASE do so. I really appreciate it.
Thanx again,
Chaz

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